Hi David and everyone, While I certainly appreciate reading this thread, and clearly there is a lot of energy on this matter of keyboards and their use with screen readers, I would like to say that there is no need for any serious concern about losing the functionality of the Numpad and therefore the functionality of Window-Eyes. This is because any function currently assigned to the Numpad keys can be assigned to other key combinations in the WE control panel. Also, regarding keyboards which happen to include a Numpad and yet do not include a NumLock key, I would guess that if the manufacturer was simply providing the Numpad to make numeric input easier, that manufacturer probably didn't make those keys unique in the codes they pass on to Windows when pressed. In other words, taking the number 5 on the Numpad as an example, my guess is that it would send the same key code to Windows as woudd be sent to Windows by pressing the number 5 on the Qwerty area of the keyboard; therefore, there would be no uniqueness about the Numpad numbers, and also there would be no alternate functions on the Numpad number keys, that is, that uniqueness we're used to when we turn NumLock off. In short, we will need to get used to the idea that we are going to have to use whatever keys are available to get our screen reader tasks completed, and perhaps we'll have to use more key combinations like Control-Shift-T, which we're all used to anyway. In truth, as long as we have keyboards which work at all, we'll be able to control Window-Eyes. Smile
All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail....@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of David via Talk Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 1:26 PM To: Rick Thomas; Window-Eyes Discussion List; 'Stephen Clark' Subject: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers... Rick and the rest, This discussion, altogether reminds me the one that every now and than, has popped up around USB NumPads. Rick, how much we would love a list provided, for all keyboards on the market, and their compatibility, it will never work. I am going to deal with but a couple of reasons, some of them likely brand new to some of you. First of all, it is true, some keyboards need hardware specific drivers. Even Microsoft has a line of keyboards, which will need drivers, particularly designed for the keyboard to work fully. In some cases, the driver has a menu, or some sort of a control panel, to setup the exact behavior. For instance, my one Microsoft keyboard here, comes with a set of "Quick keys", for launching your favorite net browser, your standard Email client, your desirable music player and so forth. Trouble is, the control panel provided by the driver, simply is useless with a screen reader, due to a totally graphical interface. Another Microsoft keyboard I have, is somehow doable to program, since the control panel for setting it up, is partially labelled with text on the screen.In both cases, should you decide you don't want to change the quick keys and their standard (default) behavior, you can run both these keyboards as plug-and-play. Plug them in, and enjoy the standard features, including an app-key, a numlock key, and standard behavior of the numeric keypad. My one Logitech keyboard, does not have a right-hand windows key, but does have an application key. My one Dell laptop has no app-key, no right windows key, but has an FN-key. The wireless keyboard I am on at this instance, has an app-key, a numlock-key, but has no Ctrl-key on the right hand, only on the left - which cause certain keystrokes no longer possible as one-handed strokes. What puzzles, is that all these keyboards are told - from the manufacturer and advertisers - to be standard keyboards. Might be worth to notice, that a desktop keyboard is considered "standard", when it has anything between 101 and 105 keys, and that is except from quick-keys and multimedia keys. My point here is, that there is a literal jungle of manufacturers, and it would be hard to determine if each and everyone of them keeps to a "full" standard. Even one and same manufacturer may have different keyboards, often with more or less identical names and model numbers. As already described above, my two Microsoft keyboards, are somehow different in accessibility. And the history of some other users, buying three different Dell keyboards, before they landed on one that could do, will tell the same point quite well. A list of functional keyboards, should it take into consideration only the hardware, leaving the driver, control panel or other software for the keyboard out of the story? I did ask the local dealer of WE here, as well as the former GW staff, why they did not sell USB NumPads, which would have greatly increased the functionality of laptops. The answer I got both places, may well enough apply in the case of why they don't sell full keyboards either. The local dealer told me, they had found one USB NumPad, completely working with the screen reader. they wanted to play the safe part, and ordered in a good stock of this particular keypad, same brand, same model, same design. Only to realize, that half the keypads were useless, as they did not work properly with the screen reader. Why? Because the processor used inside the keypad, that is the very electronic part that sends the keystrokes to the computer for further handling, would alter from one production batch, to the other. That means in effect, you order three keyboards from one and same manufacturer, one each day. Day1, the keypad will work faultlessly with the screen reader. Day2, no chance. Day3, the same as day1. Now lets take a look on how the industry works. You buy a Dell computer, I buy an HP. Our grandmothers both decide to go for a Linovo. It is easy enough to determine that the dell comes with an AMD processor, the HP and Linovo both base their operation on Intel processors. This is something clearly stated on the box, and even in the advertisement. Window-Eyes is designed to be running likewise on both processors. Yet, no matter how close they are in design and specifications, you might once in a while end up with cases where a piece of software does work on one, but not so on the other. Was more of a challenge 15 years ago, but still may apply in very specific cases. The processor then does not matter much. but what about all the other one hundred pieces of hardware inside your computer. do you think that HP manufactur each and every component on their own, and so does Dell and Linovo? Promise you, the technology to manufacture just one of those electronic tiny pieces, is a technolgy that none of us on the list has the money and knowledge to build, manufacture and otherwise engineer. And before you claim me to be a hobbiest, let me tell you that I am educated inside this industry, so I do know what I am telling you. Bottom-line is, any computer manufacturer on this globe, basically only is shopping components from big production mills. That is why, for an example, you can get one HP computer today with an Intel processor, next year's model may have its processor from AMD and both will be sold with the same model and brand name. Same goes with the keyboard. Today they buy it from a Chineese factory, tomorrow it was from Hong Kong, and next week they get if from the USA, because it happened that the air-plane from Asia could not land due to foggy weather. In other words, the days of each manufacturer keeping strictly to his own specifications, are long time gone. A list of what keyboards would work and which would not, simply is a daydream that we who have been in the industry for the last three decades or more, will have burried many ice-creams ago. :) Then, let me give all you English singular-languaged people a tiny bit of a shock. Did you know, that the keyboard standard you so dependingly have come to rely on, simply has not been the standard in other places around the globe or the last 25 years? Take a plain straight-forward standard 101-keys keyboard. Let's turn on the NumLock, and now hit the key just to the right of the 0-key. On your English-lingual keyboard, you will get a period-sign. this due to the way you write a decimal number, like 3.45. In many European languages, the decimal point is a comma, like 3,45, and hence, the decimal-key on the Numeric keypad, will produce a Comma, and have a Comma printed on the physical key. Now, how would you define a Scandinavian keyboard, compared to an American keyboard, on the list you so eagerly call for? Which of them should be considered "Standard"? On a typical Scandinavian keyboard, you will find a separate key, which will give you the less-than and greater-than symbols. On all the American keyboards I have here, you will have to press the Shift, along with the Comma and Period-keys respectively - to get these symbols. On a German keyboard, you will find several extra keys, covering their accentuated characters. These keys have to either be added on to the American standard for a keyboard. Or, what is more commonly found, they wil replace other keys that the manufacturer considers less used in that country. For instance, the Less- and Greater-than key, that I mentioned on the Scandinavian keyboards, typically will be located immediately to the left of your Z-key, leaving the Left-Shift-Key, somehow smaller sized. I am ready to claim, Rick and many of you American users, that I could put a non-American keyboard in front of you, and you would soon enough get lost on some of the keystrokes you are relying on, for your screen reader. Now then, does that mean, we could have one list of accessible keyboards, for each language or country? Sorry, that is not how easy the world is. For instance, many people shop over the net. That means, I live in Europe, but may buy a computer from North-America, and a keyboard from Asia. Secondly, even if I go to the local Dell store, they may collect their components from all over the globe. Why? Money, restrictions of what components are allowed crossing the boarder, contracts, local preferences (like the decimal-point example above), lingual dependency and so forth. How in the world, do you expect AISquared or anyone else, to compile a list that would cover all of these credencials? And since either of these factors could be changed tomorrow, next week, next month - you ould ncould not even do with an annually update of the list. Surprising to some of you. But long as there does not exist ONE industrial standard, unfortunately little to do. The FN-issue, where the standard F-keys cannot be accessed without combining them with the FN-key of a laptop, is another example of how the manufacturers sometimes make decissions, that even the sighted market disagrees in. Sorry to wake you from the daydreams, but that is the realities of today's technologic world. David On 4/25/2015 11:59 PM, Rick Thomas via Talk wrote: > Hi Steve: > It is incumbent on a piece of software to work with a given platform > including operating systems and, in the case of a screen reader, the > keyboard which is the primary interface for their clients and the only thing > they have to use the features of the software. > A simple list of manufacturers and hardware that works well with WindowEyes > might be the easiest and least costly solution. > Also, a list of settings for various other gotchyas like audio cards should > also be available for the more common choices a WindowEyes client may make. > This needs to be available on a WebPage and not burried in some technical, > or many technical, articles requiring a long search effort by a new user and > available before a user buys a new machine with the intent of using > WindowEyes on it. > Just a part of having a professional piece of software and considering the > target audience. > Another choice would be to act as a ReSeller of compatible hardware and > software products but I can see AI Squared selling at a much higher markup > than other standard retailers and thus things costing us more. > I give up. I don't run that company, am not in their management team nor do > I sit on the Board so any further comments might be beetching the whale and > I will just drop this thread and go listen to Red Wing Hockey and Ken and > Paul call the game - smile. > Later and have a good weekend! > Rick USA > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%4 0hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/rod_hutton%40h otmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
