Greetings list.
Yes Caution would be the word I would use for this.
I really don't believe Narrator is the brand new fantastic screen reader replacement for JFW or Window Eyes. I don't believe Narrator has a true review cursor such as JFW or Window Eyes does have and there are just some programs like it or not that you have to make use of Mouse cursors and review cursors to get to where you wish to be on the screen to activate parts of the program you just can not tab or arrow to. This big thing of Narrator having more access or giving us more access to things looks good on the surface but with no scripting or some kind of set files to make difficult programs with nonstandard controls workable, Narrator is basically useless except just for the basic uses of the computer.
Kenneth Son.

On 8/10/2016 16:10, Vaughan Dodd via Talk wrote:
Thanks for the post.

I do think we should be cautious about this.  Apart from the fact that the guy 
is a teacher - teacher of what and of whom - his credentials are not clearly 
identified.  So his views are just as good or just as bad as any one elses.

Many of us use apps not included in his discussion - excel, outlook, other mail 
and spreadsheet applications and so on.  Whilst it is clear that the discussion 
is about Windows 10 anniversary, and as such is narrow in context, it is far 
from complete.

The bias is clear: if it is free - it must be better, and he has only ever used 
JFW of the paid screen readers.
Microsoft's commitment to accessibility is questonable.  Yes: Narrator has made 
improvements which are long overdue, and there are knowledgeable blind people 
commiting to Narrator.  But - no braille, no ability to configure it for 
specific apps, and so many other shortcomings which Window-Eyes and JFW have 
attempted to resolve over the years.



The discussion is an important one, as the industry is in a state of change.  
But: we should just treat the comments for what they are - someone's legitimate 
opinion.


Vaughan.



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-----Original Message-----
From: Talk 
[mailto:talk-bounces+vaughan.dodd001=msd.govt...@lists.window-eyes.com] On 
Behalf Of Chris Skarstad via Talk
Sent: Thursday, 11 August 2016 6:27 a.m.
To: Russ Kiehne; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Subject: Re: Ranking Screen Readers In Windows10 Anniversary Update: The 
Results Will Surprise You!

No mention of Window-eyes, eh? tisk tisk.
On 8/10/2016 9:38 AM, Russ Kiehne via Talk wrote:
The following article came from
https://www.coolblindtech.com/ranking-screen-readers-in-windows10-anni
versary-update-the-results-will-surprise-you/

He seemed to leave out Window Eyes?

Ranking Screen Readers In Windows10 Anniversary Update: The Results Will 
Surprise You!

James Oates


On  August 9, 2016

In this article, I will attempt to review and rank three of the most
popular current screen readers that are available at this time. The three 
screen readers were tested on the most recent version of Windows 10 anniversary 
update. This is important because one of the screen readers is Microsoft’s most 
recently updated Narrator.
Although ranking the screen readers might prove to be quite controversial, I 
think it can also open up a real discussion on which screen readers are most 
accessible, and even the question of accessibility can sometimes be up for 
debate. I do realize that accessibility is determined by personal needs and 
preferences, so I will attempt to define the criteria I used for accessibility 
in this review.

What Is Accessibility?

Quite simply, I determined that accessibility is the ability to access that 
which needs to be accessed. Also, I take points off accessibility for the 
screen readers that make it difficult to access material by being dysfunctional 
or by making it very difficult to figure out which keystrokes need to be used 
with the material. Some screen readers make you use ridiculous key combinations 
to activate website elements or functions within applications. So without 
further ado, here are the rankings!

Number One: Microsoft Narrator!

It took me about a day to get used to the screen reader, but once I
did, I realized what a powerful tool Microsoft had created and that
the company was finally serious about supporting a built-in screen
reader for the blind. In fact, the only thing I could find wrong with
the screen reader was that it did not work with my braille display. I am 
currently working with Microsoft and HIMS to see if this problem can be 
resolved. Besides that one issue, the screen reader was fully accessible on all 
websites and applications. I tested the screen readers on Microsoft Edge, 
Internet Explorer, Groove Music, Skype, Dropbox, Microsoft Word, Audacity, 
Feedback, and the Settings app. Narrator now uses something called scan mode. 
You can toggle this on and off by pressing caps lock and space bar. When scan 
mode is off, you can tab through active elements, use Windows keyboard 
commands, and navigate by means of your preferred preference; such as, items, 
headings, and paragraphs. When scan mode is on, you can navigate through 
everything on the screen—that includes text, website elements, and application 
controls—by using the tab key, arrowing around the screen, or employing letter 
navigation. How often has your screen reader announced; “OK button”. And you 
are wondering; “What am I saying OK to?” When scan mode is turned on, you can 
just arrow up and read the text associated with that button. You do need to 
toggle scan mode off when you want to use keyboard commands such as control P 
to pause a music track or alt F4 to close an application. This was the only 
screen reader that was fully functional using Microsoft Edge. It was also the 
only screen reader that was able to read every active element and all text on 
each website and application. Clearly, hands down, Narrator is the winner!

Second-Place Goes to NVDA.

NVDA
performed mostly well. The problem is it uses a function called browse mode 
that doesn’t actually work at this time. You’re supposed to be able to toggle 
between focus and browse modes by pressing insert plus spacebar. It’s supposed 
to function like Narrator’s scan mode. Because it didn’t work, Microsoft Edge 
was only able to read active elements, not text, on the screen. It was also 
difficult to read text on other applications. Like I said before, you want to 
know what you’re saying “OK” to. Also, there were other applications where you 
had to switch the pain view to see what else was on the screen. That’s OK if 
you know that there are other pains on the screen. But if you don’t, you’re 
missing out on loads of information. NVDA is still a fantastic screen reader 
and the developers of the project are working on fixing browse mode. I suspect 
they will work out the kinks very soon. But can they keep up with all the 
changes and updates coming from Microsoft on an almost daily basis?

JAWS Finishes in a Distant Third.

This wasn’t even close! I don’t even know where to begin! For
starters, the JAWS display driver interfered with the Microsoft
Upgrade Assistant which is a program that allows customers to download
Windows10 Anniversary Update without having to wait for the automatic
update. I had to uninstall the Freedom Scientific display driver just to 
download my free copy of Windows 10 Anniversary Update. Next, JAWS does not 
work with Microsoft Edge unless you’re using the touch cursor. This makes 
Microsoft’s primary browser virtually unusable. This is inexcusable and 
unacceptable. JAWS has also come up with some very convoluted keystroke 
combinations to interact with elements on webpages. I also ran into several 
situations where JAWS was incapable of activating navigation bars on webpages. 
I just want to know, are the people at VFO serious about accessibility, or just 
interested in convincing people in enterprise and government that they are?

Final Thoughts.

I really enjoyed the Mark mobile voice that Narrator uses. I was also
pleasantly surprised at how quickly the screen reader reacts. I’m now
using it as my primary screen reader. I of course will always continue
to use NVDA as well. It is an amazing product and will only continue
to improve. They have one of the most talented group of developers
I’ve ever seen. As for JAWS, I can’t think of one good thing to say. And that’s 
a difficult position for me to take. When I first became a teacher 25 years 
ago, JAWS was the only program that made the digital world accessible for me. 
It was an amazing product, and I’ve always shown a great deal of gratitude 
toward them, but even I have to admit that they’re not maintaining their 
commitment to customers. You don’t know how difficult that is for me to say 
this because I have a great deal of loyalty toward the people who helped me 
when I was younger. I hope the people at VFO and Freedom Scientific can turn 
things around, but most importantly I applaud the accessibility team at 
Microsoft. For years Microsoft has preached accessibility but seemed more 
interested in promoting their own advancement within the field of 
accessibility. The new Microsoft accessibility team is finally focusing on 
their actual customers. What a refreshing change! I have also recorded a 
podcast demonstrating the use and accessibility of Windows 10 anniversary 
update. I hope you give it a listen.

The views expressed here are purely my own, and should be taken as such.
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