Thank you very much for this David. Also, how good to meet someone who, like me, was not born to brevity. If something's worth saying, it's worth saying properly. Also, you are to be congratulated on your English, a capacity which, in many Scandinavians, Germans, Dutch ETC., puts us anglophones to shame.
In sharp comparison to a recent presidential election, how refreshing it is to hear opinions actually supported by facts! Best wishes from the UK -- Reg <regw...@btinternet.com> On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 06:35:32 +0000 David via Talk <talk@lists.window-eyes.com> wrote: > First of all, a small correction. I did not mean to say whether there > will be more Window-Eyes users than Jaws users locally. I just said that > the authorities have prioritized the WE screen reader for a handful years. > > > In practical terms, that means that if you are a new user, and do apply > for a screen reader, and you don't have special reasons for sticking to > a particular product, you likely will be given a copy of Window-Eyes. > Specially so, since you can install the localized version of WE, on as > many computers as possible, which is not the case with Jaws (from what I > am told). > > > Would you happen to be an existing Jaws user, or a user of any other > screen reader, and need an update of your product, you will still get > the upgrade of your existing product. So, you are currently not forced > to change screen reader. > > > Pricing, licensing and whatever other reasons, currently have been a bit > more favorable on Window-Eyes than what was the case with Jaws. On the > other hand, to my understanding Jaws has been on the market over here, > for a few years more than Window-eyes, and for different reasons were > the prioritized product from many authority agents for a number of > years. As such, we will have a considerable number of existing Jaws > users - from old. > > > Hope that cleared up my somehow vague description of the local practice, > and do apologize for not being too specific in my original message. If > you look at my illustrative figures, I even specified that quite a > number of users would NOT be current Window-Eyes users. That is why my > figures did go that low. > > > Having all that said, let's go back another five years or so, and things > were a bit different. At that time, it was even more up to the user to > determine what screen reader he or she wanted. In those days, the local > dealers did a job on convincing you why you should choose their product, > above the others. Locally, you would find both Window-Eyes, Supernova, > and Jaws. Each being promoted as more or less superior. With some > dealers being a bit more on the forefront, this caused a load of users > to choose the most promoted screen reader; not necessarily the one that > served them the better, or the one that would be most economic for the > paying authorities. Licensing issues, along with the fact that > Window-Eyes at the time could be said to be a bit outstanding, amongst > other things due to the scripting capabilities, might have been some > heavy reasons why the authorities decided to make it more of a default > choice, for the newer users. > > > Yet, this all will be a bit simplified a picture of the whole situation. > You might experience slight differences from one area in our country, to > the other. It all would depend on how much the user insist on going for > one screen reader, or the other. Sometimes, if a user wants a specific > Braille display, and that happens to be the one the Jaws dealer would be > selling, the authority agent who process your application, might judge > that it will be an easier go to have one and same dealer for the > complete computer system. Should the next user insist on a Braille > display, a Braille embosser, or another piece of equipment that is sold > by the Window-Eyes dealer, again the agent might find it more convenient > to order a total package from one and same seller. And then, if the user > is a bit more informed, and insist on choosing one product from that > dealer, and the other product from the next dealer, the agent will > likely put together a cross-board package for you. > > > Unfortunately, in this regard, the dealer of Window-Eyes might not > necessarily be the most foreground one, though that might be just what I > as an end-user would feel. Alot of these decisions, are made behind the > scene, since every so often, the authorities will have a review of their > contracts with the dealers in the market. Such a review, about a decade > ago, lead to at least one screen reader falling totally out of the > approved list of products, due to the dealer not meeting the > requirements from the authorities. The dealers will have to meet > requirements on delivering time, customer service, pricing and > licensing, stock-keeping - along with who knows whatever else. When will > they do the next review? I do not know, and noone can tell if they will > still stick with Window-Eyes as the prioritized screen reader. > > > I am living in Scandinavia, but these kind of authority coverage plans, > will exist even in other European countries, with whatever modifications > might be the case. Some countries have a "one size fits all" policy, > others are a bit more flexible. Some are on a very strict budget, others > have more loose frames on the economic part. And it differs a bit from > one country to the other, exactly what authorities will be set to handle > and process your applications. In one country, it would be the School > For The Blind, in the next it might be the Blind Organization, and in > the third it might be the Office For Social Pensions who will be the > Executive authority on the matter. Once again, you can see there are > great differences around the globe, differences that you as an end-user > might not always be aware of. > > > In some areas, it is just about impossible for a blind person to acquire > any technical aids, unless you are a student, or happen to be in a work > situation. Such was, for instance, the case here locally, about 15-20 > years ago. You would have to really come up with good arguments, were > you to have a computer system paid, were you not in school or work > situations. Then, the authorities realized, that even a home-bound blind > user, will have to pay his bills, order his medication, write his > letters, and fill in his applications. How could you, without a computer > for the blind (including all screen reader and other necessary > equipment) - especially now aday when they put more and more services > out in electronic formats. Hence, they decided to change practice, and > let us have the special equipment paid, but we will have to buy and > maintain our personal computer, the ink-printer, and any other equipment > that could be told to be "standard" for every computer user, blind or > sighted. This, to a certain degree, would even include the software you > want to install on the computer. > > > Well, I won't bother you all with more details. It is of no real benefit > for you, since it will be of more individual character, and tied up with > many details in local customs and living conditions. What I have tried > to do, is simply just to illustrate and stress my point: > > Things differs from one place on the globe, to the other. > > Did you know, for instance, that GW for years has had a special > licensing policy locally? If I accept to run the LOCALE version of > Window-Eyes, that is a version translated to the locale language, I can > install it on as many computers as I want. Do I, for whatever good > reasons I might have, on the other hand want to run the English version > of the very same screen reader, I am only allowed to run it on a very > restricted number of computers, think it was three or five units. Again, > things to be aware of, that might differ from one country to the other. > Explain why, feel what you want, but that is the hard facts. > > > Though none of this really helps you much in your local situation, > perhaps it was just interesting to know a bit about how things are > handled outside your vicinity. At least, I find it interesting to notice > what kind of conditions would apply in different places, since it might > help us to understand people a bit more. Take all of what I have told > you, as the reflections and observations of a long-time end-user, with a > bit of experience, and use it as a curosity. I do not promote any > standpoint, just inform you of some observed differences. > > David > > > > On 11/24/2016 6:06 AM, Sky Mundell wrote: > > What country do you live in? You menshened that the blind people in your > > country mostly use Window-Eyes > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David > > > > Might be so, at least in certain places around the globe. I only could talk > > from locale perspectives. > > > > The Jaws screen reader has for long been a headache for the paying > > authorities, due to its strictness in copyright and licensing. Besides, one > > official told me - and note that this is a few years old info, that Jaws > > was way overpriced locally. At the time, I think Jaws was just about 1000 > > dollars, in the USA. Locally here, the price without further explanation > > was near 6000 dollars. Like he expressed it: "Somewhere across the > > Atlantic, that price multiplies nearly by six." > > > > Since the licensing policy of GW was not yet as strict, and though pricing > > is a bit higher here than in the States, still Window-Eyes turns out the > > cheaper alternative, it has been the prioritized screen reader of several > > officials locally. > > > > One valid question of course now is, what VFO will do with all the dealers. > > As it stands, one dealer sold Window-Eyes and SuperNova, the other sold > > Jaws. Are they both going to be in business outperforming each other? Or, > > will the one have to leave, and the other be the only alternative on the > > locale market? If the latter alternative will happen, people will not be > > able to even make a personal choice, since screen reader manufacturers do > > not sell directly to end-users outside their home-market. That would > > definitely force a number of people to leave Windows machines, simply just > > to get an alternative. > > > > I do not know conditions all over the globe, of course I don't, and I am > > not arguing anything of what you said. But I am ready to claim that > > business might differ a bit from one part of the world to the other. And > > the "We are the only ones" idea, might not necessarily be the one that > > leads to the highest market-share. For many people and local faculties, the > > end-question is a matter of economy. That, at least, will stay the same all > > over the planet. What has happened in the past, with several manufacturers, > > and a number of products to choose from, cannot necessarily be transfered > > into a situation with one huge actor, and some small ones. It might be > > smarter to phase things out over a period of time, than to simply just pull > > the plug. Given enough time, the market might adjust more smoothly. And I > > am by no means the one to predict what kind of business model will be the > > one chosen by VFO, or any other actor. I am just making a few observations, > > doing a bit of general reaso ni > ng, and letting you all know that things might have more than one > perspective. What seems to be the case from your local perspective, might > seem totally different from another perspective. > > > > For instance, you claim that they sued the State Agencies, if they did not > > buy their product? That will work in the States, maybe. Doubt they could > > get much far with that approach in Europe. There is even laws that are > > meant to prevent such business activities. Besides, Europe has had their > > own screen reader manufacturers up through the years, and so is the case > > with hardware like Braille displays and speech synthesizers. > > Once they are going International, a company will have to deal with totally > > different laws and practices from one place to the other. What works in the > > US, might not even work in Canada, or in Brazil. That's why I am not sure > > if we should do too much of specculations. Let's face the facts, and > > discuss them. > > > > Scene of this world is rapidly changing. In two years, our screen reader > > has been sold twice. How long will the new owner keep it? Or, how long will > > any screen reader even stay in business? Are you totally sure you really > > want to insist on a screen reader with tomorrow's technology? > > What if you could have a graphical display - somehow similar to a Braille > > display, with pins that came up - which gave you a tactile and correct copy > > of the screen contents? You know longer would need a screen reader to do > > any interpretation. What you could touch and feel, would be exactly the > > shape that formed on the visual screen. Sure, were you to have one pin for > > each pixel on the screen, your tactile display would be tremendously huge > > and clumsy. But you are already trained to only concentrate on a small part > > of the screen, and build a complete picture of it all in your brain. > > Besides, even sighted people now aday, love to stare at their tiny > > cellphone display, with far less pixels. Imagine you were offered a > > display, the size of a CD cover, holding a matrix of something like 50 by > > 60 pins. It would not amount up to anything more pins than what is inside a > > 40-cell Braille display currently; so the price might not even be all that > > scarry. The whole unit might be under a > pound, or less than half a kilogram. > > > > Each pin on the unit, would represent one pixel on the screen. Small > > buttons would let you scroll up, down and sideways on the screen; moving > > the unit round the screen contents. Since it would make a true copy of the > > shapes on the screen, you don't even have to bother learning Braille. You > > would not be stopped by undefined graphics, and if the pins could have been > > raised to different hights, you might even have a way of simplified color > > notion. What you feel, is what they see! Do you still want a screen reader? > > Still want to risk that new updates from your software manufacturer will > > break the screen reader's functionality? Or having to chance on the fact > > that next generation of soft- or hardware will be compatible with the > > interface and programming language your screen reader was manufactured > > under? > > > > OK, till now, this all has been a dream. One big show-stopper has been the > > pricing of Braille cells, or any technology that would resemble such cells. > > Recently though, we have heard of the neww Braille displays - which > > apparently will sell for a fraction of the traditional ones. That must > > mean, that prices on the pins to pop up and down, likely have been greatly > > reduced. Or, was there anyone manufacturer out there that highly > > over-priced their traditional units? I only can observe that the pricing > > issue might not be the biggest issue any longer. Furthermore, I recently > > read about some interesting development that is currently going on, which > > might bring things closer to realization, than what we have been used to > > think. And that was even about a unit that would be the size of a standard > > PC mouse. > > > > For those of you, who happen to be familiar with the old-time product named > > Optacon, you will have a clue what I am talking about. The rest of you, > > will have to think a bit non-traditionally here, but still you might want > > to consider if screen readers is the ABSOLUTE answer for tomorrow. > > > > > > On 11/23/2016 8:02 AM, Sky Mundell wrote: > > > Hi Grant. Your absolutely right. The reason why JAWS got the > > government > agencies was because they sued any state agencies who did not > > purchase JAWS. > > > In other words, they threatened the agencies to either buy JAWS or be > > sued > and that scared the agencies so much that they began purchasing > > only JAWS. > > > As a result, many of the earlier windows screen readers, like Slimware > > > Window Bridge, all went out of business. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+skyt=shaw...@lists.window-eyes.com] On > > > Behalf Of Grant Metcalf via Talk > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 > > 10:42 PM > To: David; Window-Eyes Discussion List > Subject: Response to > > Dve about WindowEyes and and the Shark > > Hi dave, > You have many good > > points with respect to business expenses and compotition. > > > > > > Unfortunately, The Shark got the government involved in purchasing > > their > product and so made it difficult for other screen reader programs > > to be as > well funded as VFO is. I suspect that because the government is > > so involved > with JFW it will be the primary product for VFO dispite our > > preferences. > > > Grandpa DOS will never purchase the Shark, but if I change, it will > > probably > be to NVDA or perhaps Narrator should I have the money to > > spend. The other > unfortunate thing is that all those who have taxable > > income will be paying > for the Shark anyway. To often big business and > > government work > hand-in-hand. Weep out loud! > > > > > > Grandpa DOS > > > > > > O > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > > author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > > > > > For membership options, visit > > > > > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/skyt%40shaw.ca > > > . > > > For subscription options, visit > > > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > > List archives can be found at > > > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/regwebb%40btinternet.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
