Hi, To be honest, for my crucial surfing, like my grocery website, NVDA works as well as Window-Eyes ever did. It's just as responsive, and, as for keystrokes, it is equivalent to Window-Eyes, except that you use K and Shift-K rather than L and Shift-L. Insert-T reads the title bar, and CapsLock-Space toggles browse mode off and on. I've already uninstalled the nasty screen reader company's offering, and, if at all possible, I'll never use it again. It's a question of justice, preferring to dissociate myself from a company who treated GW Micro so badly.
Best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail....@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of net bat via Talk Sent: October 9, 2017 6:33 PM To: Lloyd Rasmussen <l...@sprynet.com>; Window-Eyes Discussion List <talk@lists.window-eyes.com> Cc: net bat <net...@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility i found some web pages that have firefox portable versions so you could try them on a flash drive and not install them. with me the 64 bit version i couldn't turn browse mode on but i could with the 32 bit version. this is with my 64bit windows 7. when you install them you have to change the path to your flash drive or else it will copy the files to your hard drive. https://www.firefox-usb.com/ https://portableapps.com/apps/internet/firefox_portable -----Original Message----- From: Lloyd Rasmussen via Talk Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 10:29 AM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Lloyd Rasmussen Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility Maybe that's what happened, but I'm not sure of that. A new 56.01 update was available when I checked this morning. I am going to reboot and try again, but my first finding with this new minor update is that browse mode is no longer available anywhere in Firefox. You can still read the menus and can tab to items, but are not even offered the possibility of opening browse mode with Window-Eyes. The plot thickens! Lloyd Rasmussen, Kensington, MD http://lras.home.sprynet.com -----Original Message----- From: Rod Hutton via Talk Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:24 PM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Rod Hutton Subject: RE: Latest Firefox, and accessibility Hi David, I can certainly confirm that your workaround, namely, to open another tab, wherein Window-Eyes works as before. My guess is that, on startup, the set file is not associated with the browser window, but, rather, with the Firefox application window. I've run into this problem before, when, all of a sudden, focus got lost and stuck in the application window, since this is all I heard when I read the title bar. This hadn't happened for some time, and we'll see what happens now that I can begin testing it again. Thanks so much for your effort in diagnosing this problem, and we'll report back our experiences. All the best, Rod -----Original Message----- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail....@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of David via Talk Sent: October 8, 2017 8:31 AM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>; Lloyd Rasmussen <l...@sprynet.com> Cc: David <trailerda...@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility Seems this is going to be the kind of never-ending story. This morning, I had to restart my computer for some reason. After rebooting, all the sudden I do see the same behavior in Firefox, as reported by others. You can turn off Browse mode, and tab around the website. You can reach all the menus. But with browse mode turned on, there is absolutely no luck in having WinEyes read anything to you. Now, i would not let this throw me off. I have been experimenting quite a bit here now, and here is at least some kind of a workaround. Wonder if some of you - who have trouble with Firefox 56 - please could report back if you see the same behavior. 1. Open Firefox. 2. Open any website of your choice, by typing in the address in the address bar, and hitting enter, just like you have always done. 3. The site comes up, but you cannot navigate it with WinEyes. 4. Try turn off Browse mode, and now use tab. Do you hear the different links and controls spoken? Then the workaround. 1. with all firefox windows closed, open Firefox, and direct it to any website you might like. 2. Hit Ctrl-N, and a new session of Firefox will open in a separate window. 3. In this new window, open any website you desire - even the very same one you opened in the first window. 3. The website in the new ((or second) window, can be navigated just like ever before. 4. Go back to the first window you had opened with Firefox, and close it with F4. 5. From here, keep navigating Firefox as much as you like, in the newest window. You even can open as many windows and tabs as you want, and WinEyes seems to work just fine. The ones of you, who have been able to work with Firefox 56 so far, have you rebooted your computer after updating to this version? If not, I am starting to wondering if there could be something going on. Why I had to reboot my computer this morning, was because I had started Jaws, and it reported that an update for version 18.04 was available. After updating, it requested the computer rebooted. Funny thing is, that yesterday my WinEyes worked perfectly well with Firefox 56. This morning, updating Jaws and then rebooting the computer, my WinEyes starts to have trouble with Firefox. Sure, it all would be coincidents, wouldn't it? And of course, we could go on asking if anyone who are having no trouble with WinEyes in Firefox, also do not have Jaws installed, or even have not updated their Jaws version. i would have been willing to uninstall Jaws, just to make sure there is no cross-over issues, but would that not cause me to use an extra Jaws installation when reinstalling it on the computer? Or, does Jaws recognize it has already been installed here before, and hence abstain from counting the new reinstallation against my three available installations under the license? I really would have been willing to say, there would be no way for Jaws to interfere, all the time only WinEyes is loaded on the computer. But still, it all makes me wonder a bit. OK, I could live with the extra hazzle, of always opening a Firefox session, and then hitting Ctrl-n, and start my browsing from the new session. The thing that now puzzles me, is why things work in the second session, but never in the first, of Firefox. Could that be due to some bug in the browser, or is the second session opening with different settings - deep down in the hundreds of settings of the browser? Wonder if a report to Mozilla would bring some clarification here, but not sure where or how to submit any bug report to the Mozilla team. To spin a little bit further on the whole issue, I did try Firefox in its dedicated safe mode, and there I was able to navigate with WinEyes. it of course might all be due to some kind of add-on, that troubles WinEyes in the newest Firefox version. But that all will have to be determined through intensified further investigation. Till now, these are my findings, and I hope others can contribute with further findings, confirmations and ideas for solutions. Somehow seems we have to trace exactly what causes the issue, before we can start determining if WinEyes and Firefox 56+ can ever be made to work hand-in-hand. All just for your information. On 10/7/2017 7:02 PM, Evan Reese via Talk wrote: > That was me, using WE 8.4 on a Windows 7 laptop with Firefox 56.0 32 bit. > I just had it open and went to three different sites, including the > BARD site. It works the same as always for me. > Evan > > -----Original Message----- From: Lloyd Rasmussen via Talk > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 9:32 AM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: Lloyd Rasmussen > Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility > > I am puzzled that someone reported that Firefox 56 worked with > Win-Eyes 8.4. > It doesn't work for me with Win-Eyes 9.5.4. > David, Browse mode is available, but you get nothing but dings when > you move > the arrow keys, and no output when you use the Tab or shift-Tab key. > You can > read the menus. You can read anything you can tab to while browse mode is > turned off. Sometimes Firefox.set doesn't seem to load, but even when it > does, the situation remains the same. > I'm running Windows 7 64-bit, but the 32-bit version of Firefox is what > wants to run. I believe I tried disabling add-ons also, with no effect. I > get most of the same results on a different computer running Windows 10. > And even if we didn't have trouble with Firefox version 56, we are pretty > much guaranteed to have trouble with FF 57 which comes out next month. > I like Firefox, but if I'm going to continue to use it, it will have > to be > with NVDA, JAWS or Narrator for Windows 10. > Everyone should read the latest blog from Marco Zehe to understand > more of > what is going on: > https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/ > > > > > Lloyd Rasmussen, Kensington, MD > http://lras.home.sprynet.com > -----Original Message----- From: David via Talk > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:14 AM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: David > Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility > > Pure guessing here. > > > When the Firefox window comes up, are you able to access the menus? If > so, Go to Help, and scroll down to > > Start with add-ons disabled, > > and press Enter. This should let Firefox start in its own safe-mode; > which btw does have nothing to do with Windows safe-mode. You can read > more here: > > https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/troubleshoot-firefox-issues-using-safe-mode > > > > Alternatively, they say you should be able to do it via the start menu. > > 1. Press Win-R, and type: > > Firefox -safe-mode > > (please notice the dashes). > > 2. Press Enter, and the Firefox should open in a safe-mode window. > > I have not tested either of these aproaches, so take it for what a > search on the net is worth. > > > I further take it, that you have done the two obvious things: > > 1. Make sure Browse mode is turned ON, by pressing Ctrl-Shift-A. I am > ready to presume, that you will have a message spoken to you, saying: > > Browse Mode Is Not Available. > > 2. Check that the correct set file is loaded. Press Insert-L, and it > should say > > Firefox.set. > > > To me, it could seem like you have some kind of a message window that > opens when you open Firefox, and which get the thing stucked. if you > press Ctrl-Shift-T, does it tell you a website, or does it say > About:Blank, and then Firefox? Alternatively, does it say something like: > > Firefox Message? > > If the latter, there is a message on the screen, which you might have > varying luck in reading. You could try hitting the Ctrl-Shift-W twice, > to have WinEyes do its most aggressive reading of the full window. > > > > Even loading NVDA, while you are on the Firefox window, with WinEyes > still running. What does NVDA do? Is it able to navigate anything, or > even read any messages to you, that WinEyes was unable to pick up? > > > Lastly, do you have two eyes there? Do they see anything on the screen? > Like if you load a website, are they able to read the contents? Somwhere > in the WinEyes control panel - and forgive me for not remembering > exactly where - I do hold there is a setting for turning on a small > window, indicating to a sighted person what exactly you are seeing with > the screen reader. Have never used the feature myself, so not sure how > helpful it would be. But it might be useful enough to determining if the > screen reader has gone for a hike in the cyber mountains, due to some > Firefox food that Eloquence disagrees in. Once you have chased the > reason for your issue, you might want to hold a KitCat up in front of > the screen reader, and see if Eloquence could please get into a better > mood. Smiles. > > > For now, these are my best guesses. Perhaps your reporting back any > results of the suggestions might help others in guiding you further. > Since seemingly some users are having issues and others not, it seems > something in the newer versions of Firefox might be triggering certain > setups. This could be worth reporting to the Mozilla team, in hope they > might have some logs that could tell what changes in settings and > behavior probably causing the issues. But prior to doing any reporting > to them, it might be worth an attempt in tracing the exact issue. > > > Of course, many might argue that NVDA and Jaws do not have any issues. > Be as it might. Apparently there must be something that causes WinEyes > to have its hickups, on certain systems. Could we trace the health > issue, we might be able to remedy the WinEyes disease. Smiles. > > > Just for the fun of it, in Firefox under Help, try pressing Enter on the > item that says: > > Health Report. > > What do you get there? Should give you some technical information. > Likely nothing important in this case, but just to see if it at all > could tell anything for further tracing. It at least would report if any > of your Add-ons have caused Firefox to get an aching toe. In such a > case, offering it a donut and a cup of coffee for free, might cheer it > up a bit. Smiles. > > > Sorry for not being of all that much help, and hope you don't mind my > sense of humor on an early Saturday morning. > > > On 10/7/2017 1:04 PM, bj colt via Talk wrote: >> Hi David, >> >> I followed your instructions but got the same ding noise I get when >> firefox upgrqades to the latest version. I am running the 32 bit >> version. >> >> I pressed alt d, then f6. The same ding. Like being in an edit box >> that is stuck there. All I hear is ding. I have uninstalled firefox 3 >> times since last night and each time firefox has upgraded. Even though >> I have it set not to upgrade. >> >> It is strange how some people aring this phenomenon and others aren't. >> My friend is running firefox, same version as I am. windows 7. pentium >> processor, 500 ghz hard drive. 8 gig ram. All very wierd. >> >> It does seem like a focus problem but what and why? >> >> Live long and prosper, John >> >> -----Original Message----- From: David via Talk >> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 11:02 AM >> To: Window-Eyes Discussion List ; WE English Mailinglist >> Cc: David >> Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility >> >> Forgot to say, I am still running Windows7 pro 64bit, in case the OS >> might be the bottleneck. >> >> >> On 10/7/2017 12:01 PM, David via Talk wrote: >>> I do not want to start a new lengthy arguing over accessibility issues. >>> Yet, a few days ago, we had a discussion running here, as to the latest >>> version of Firefox - 56 - which some users had experienced issues with. >>> >>> I did not have any intention in running into accessibility issues, and >>> hence told my Firefox never to update. It is done under tools, Options, >>> Advanced, and choose the update tab. Nevertheless, this morning when >>> starting my Firefox, it still updated itself. I got the message on the >>> screen, that the update was taking place, and though I could say a few >>> things about a setting in the Firefox options, which apparently is >>> nothing but useless - I had no choice but to let the update complete >>> itself. My reasoning was that first it insisted on upgrading, I could >>> always roll it back afterwards. >>> >>> When the upgrading was finished, I checked under Tools, Help, About - >>> and the current installation says >>> >>> Firefox 56.0, 32bit. >>> >>> I now have used it for a couple of hours, browsing around, and do >>> see no >>> trouble with this version of Firefox, along with the latest (and last) >>> version of WinEyes, that is, version 9.5.4. >>> >>> I do recall there has been a few comments about the 64bit version of >>> Firefox from the past. And hence i was wondering if the users who told >>> us not to update to the latest Firefox, due to their accessibility >>> issues, would happen to be running the 64bit version. >>> >>> As an alternative, in attempting to see a reason for some experiencing >>> trouble in latest version, I do wonder if there could be a focusing >>> issue. Would any of you, who initially reported the loss of >>> accessibility in Firefox 56, maybe want to try the following. >>> 1. Open Firefox, and go to any website. >>> 2. Press Alt-D, as in Delta. >>> 3. Press F6. >>> 4. Try navigating the website. >>> Are you still unable to perform any action on the page? If so, check >>> under Help/About,and see if you are running 64- or 32bit version. >>> Please >>> note, a 32bit software can be run perfectly well on a 64bit machine, >>> but >>> you cannot run a 64bit software on a 32bit computer. Most computers now >>> aday, are 64bit machines, and yet, often you are encouraged to run the >>> 32bit software, due to the 64bit technology being more vulnerable for >>> technical issues. >>> >>> This is no attempt in advicing anyone, in their choice of browser or >>> version. I am just curious why some have reported their systems facing >>> issues, whereas my system had none. Could it even be there was >>> something >>> going wrong in your updating process? Or, could it be due to some of >>> the >>> add-ons you have installed under Firefox, and which no longer are >>> up-to-date, due to the new add-on policy of the Mozilla group? Try >>> starting your Firefox with all Add-ons disabled, and see if that solves >>> any issues. >>> >>> Really, it would be bad, should a number of users ditch an otherwise >>> good browser, or abstain from updating, due to some misunderstood >>> accessibility issues. That's why, I decided to report my findings, >>> hoping to hear from others who could shed further light on what >>> possibly >>> could cause issues for some. Perhaps we even could help them solve >>> their >>> issues, and have them back up running the Firefox browser again; even >>> with last version of WinEyes. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >>> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >>> >>> For membership options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. >>> >>> For subscription options, visit >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >>> List archives can be found at >>> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/bjcolt%40blueyonder.co.uk. >> >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the >> author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. >> >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> . >> > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/lras%40sprynet.com. > > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/mentat1%40dslextreme.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the > author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > . > _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/rod_hutton%40hotmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/lras%40sprynet.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/netbat%40comcast.net. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/rod_hutton%40hotmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
