Hi Lloyd,
I can confirm your findings with the latest Firefox.
Funny, though.
I had been running the 32-bit version, which opened automatically from my
desktop icon.
Now, however, I seem to be running the 64-bit version.
The plot thickens, indeed! Smile
Best,
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail....@lists.window-eyes.com]
On Behalf Of Lloyd Rasmussen via Talk
Sent: October 9, 2017 1:29 PM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>
Cc: Lloyd Rasmussen <l...@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility
Maybe that's what happened, but I'm not sure of that.
A new 56.01 update was available when I checked this morning. I am going to
reboot and try again, but my first finding with this new minor update is
that browse mode is no longer available anywhere in Firefox. You can still
read the menus and can tab to items, but are not even offered the
possibility of opening browse mode with Window-Eyes. The plot thickens!
Lloyd Rasmussen, Kensington, MD
http://lras.home.sprynet.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hutton via Talk
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:24 PM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: Rod Hutton
Subject: RE: Latest Firefox, and accessibility
Hi David,
I can certainly confirm that your workaround, namely, to open another tab,
wherein Window-Eyes works as before.
My guess is that, on startup, the set file is not associated with the
browser window, but, rather, with the Firefox application window.
I've run into this problem before, when, all of a sudden, focus got lost and
stuck in the application window, since this is all I heard when I read the
title bar.
This hadn't happened for some time, and we'll see what happens now that I
can begin testing it again.
Thanks so much for your effort in diagnosing this problem, and we'll report
back our experiences.
All the best,
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Talk
[mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail....@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf
Of David via Talk
Sent: October 8, 2017 8:31 AM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List <talk@lists.window-eyes.com>; Lloyd
Rasmussen <l...@sprynet.com>
Cc: David <trailerda...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility
Seems this is going to be the kind of never-ending story.
This morning, I had to restart my computer for some reason. After
rebooting, all the sudden I do see the same behavior in Firefox, as
reported by others. You can turn off Browse mode, and tab around the
website. You can reach all the menus. But with browse mode turned on,
there is absolutely no luck in having WinEyes read anything to you.
Now, i would not let this throw me off. I have been experimenting quite
a bit here now, and here is at least some kind of a workaround. Wonder
if some of you - who have trouble with Firefox 56 - please could report
back if you see the same behavior.
1. Open Firefox.
2. Open any website of your choice, by typing in the address in the
address bar, and hitting enter, just like you have always done.
3. The site comes up, but you cannot navigate it with WinEyes.
4. Try turn off Browse mode, and now use tab. Do you hear the different
links and controls spoken?
Then the workaround.
1. with all firefox windows closed, open Firefox, and direct it to any
website you might like.
2. Hit Ctrl-N, and a new session of Firefox will open in a separate window.
3. In this new window, open any website you desire - even the very same
one you opened in the first window.
3. The website in the new ((or second) window, can be navigated just
like ever before.
4. Go back to the first window you had opened with Firefox, and close it
with F4.
5. From here, keep navigating Firefox as much as you like, in the newest
window. You even can open as many windows and tabs as you want, and
WinEyes seems to work just fine.
The ones of you, who have been able to work with Firefox 56 so far, have
you rebooted your computer after updating to this version? If not, I am
starting to wondering if there could be something going on.
Why I had to reboot my computer this morning, was because I had started
Jaws, and it reported that an update for version 18.04 was available.
After updating, it requested the computer rebooted.
Funny thing is, that yesterday my WinEyes worked perfectly well with
Firefox 56. This morning, updating Jaws and then rebooting the computer,
my WinEyes starts to have trouble with Firefox.
Sure, it all would be coincidents, wouldn't it? And of course, we could
go on asking if anyone who are having no trouble with WinEyes in
Firefox, also do not have Jaws installed, or even have not updated their
Jaws version. i would have been willing to uninstall Jaws, just to make
sure there is no cross-over issues, but would that not cause me to use
an extra Jaws installation when reinstalling it on the computer? Or,
does Jaws recognize it has already been installed here before, and hence
abstain from counting the new reinstallation against my three available
installations under the license? I really would have been willing to
say, there would be no way for Jaws to interfere, all the time only
WinEyes is loaded on the computer. But still, it all makes me wonder a bit.
OK, I could live with the extra hazzle, of always opening a Firefox
session, and then hitting Ctrl-n, and start my browsing from the new
session. The thing that now puzzles me, is why things work in the second
session, but never in the first, of Firefox. Could that be due to some
bug in the browser, or is the second session opening with different
settings - deep down in the hundreds of settings of the browser? Wonder
if a report to Mozilla would bring some clarification here, but not sure
where or how to submit any bug report to the Mozilla team.
To spin a little bit further on the whole issue, I did try Firefox in
its dedicated safe mode, and there I was able to navigate with WinEyes.
it of course might all be due to some kind of add-on, that troubles
WinEyes in the newest Firefox version. But that all will have to be
determined through intensified further investigation.
Till now, these are my findings, and I hope others can contribute with
further findings, confirmations and ideas for solutions. Somehow seems
we have to trace exactly what causes the issue, before we can start
determining if WinEyes and Firefox 56+ can ever be made to work
hand-in-hand.
All just for your information.
On 10/7/2017 7:02 PM, Evan Reese via Talk wrote:
That was me, using WE 8.4 on a Windows 7 laptop with Firefox 56.0 32 bit.
I just had it open and went to three different sites, including the
BARD site. It works the same as always for me.
Evan
-----Original Message----- From: Lloyd Rasmussen via Talk
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 9:32 AM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: Lloyd Rasmussen
Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility
I am puzzled that someone reported that Firefox 56 worked with
Win-Eyes 8.4.
It doesn't work for me with Win-Eyes 9.5.4.
David, Browse mode is available, but you get nothing but dings when
you move
the arrow keys, and no output when you use the Tab or shift-Tab key.
You can
read the menus. You can read anything you can tab to while browse mode is
turned off. Sometimes Firefox.set doesn't seem to load, but even when it
does, the situation remains the same.
I'm running Windows 7 64-bit, but the 32-bit version of Firefox is what
wants to run. I believe I tried disabling add-ons also, with no effect. I
get most of the same results on a different computer running Windows 10.
And even if we didn't have trouble with Firefox version 56, we are pretty
much guaranteed to have trouble with FF 57 which comes out next month.
I like Firefox, but if I'm going to continue to use it, it will have
to be
with NVDA, JAWS or Narrator for Windows 10.
Everyone should read the latest blog from Marco Zehe to understand
more of
what is going on:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
Lloyd Rasmussen, Kensington, MD
http://lras.home.sprynet.com
-----Original Message----- From: David via Talk
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:14 AM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: David
Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility
Pure guessing here.
When the Firefox window comes up, are you able to access the menus? If
so, Go to Help, and scroll down to
Start with add-ons disabled,
and press Enter. This should let Firefox start in its own safe-mode;
which btw does have nothing to do with Windows safe-mode. You can read
more here:
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/troubleshoot-firefox-issues-using-safe-mode
Alternatively, they say you should be able to do it via the start menu.
1. Press Win-R, and type:
Firefox -safe-mode
(please notice the dashes).
2. Press Enter, and the Firefox should open in a safe-mode window.
I have not tested either of these aproaches, so take it for what a
search on the net is worth.
I further take it, that you have done the two obvious things:
1. Make sure Browse mode is turned ON, by pressing Ctrl-Shift-A. I am
ready to presume, that you will have a message spoken to you, saying:
Browse Mode Is Not Available.
2. Check that the correct set file is loaded. Press Insert-L, and it
should say
Firefox.set.
To me, it could seem like you have some kind of a message window that
opens when you open Firefox, and which get the thing stucked. if you
press Ctrl-Shift-T, does it tell you a website, or does it say
About:Blank, and then Firefox? Alternatively, does it say something like:
Firefox Message?
If the latter, there is a message on the screen, which you might have
varying luck in reading. You could try hitting the Ctrl-Shift-W twice,
to have WinEyes do its most aggressive reading of the full window.
Even loading NVDA, while you are on the Firefox window, with WinEyes
still running. What does NVDA do? Is it able to navigate anything, or
even read any messages to you, that WinEyes was unable to pick up?
Lastly, do you have two eyes there? Do they see anything on the screen?
Like if you load a website, are they able to read the contents? Somwhere
in the WinEyes control panel - and forgive me for not remembering
exactly where - I do hold there is a setting for turning on a small
window, indicating to a sighted person what exactly you are seeing with
the screen reader. Have never used the feature myself, so not sure how
helpful it would be. But it might be useful enough to determining if the
screen reader has gone for a hike in the cyber mountains, due to some
Firefox food that Eloquence disagrees in. Once you have chased the
reason for your issue, you might want to hold a KitCat up in front of
the screen reader, and see if Eloquence could please get into a better
mood. Smiles.
For now, these are my best guesses. Perhaps your reporting back any
results of the suggestions might help others in guiding you further.
Since seemingly some users are having issues and others not, it seems
something in the newer versions of Firefox might be triggering certain
setups. This could be worth reporting to the Mozilla team, in hope they
might have some logs that could tell what changes in settings and
behavior probably causing the issues. But prior to doing any reporting
to them, it might be worth an attempt in tracing the exact issue.
Of course, many might argue that NVDA and Jaws do not have any issues.
Be as it might. Apparently there must be something that causes WinEyes
to have its hickups, on certain systems. Could we trace the health
issue, we might be able to remedy the WinEyes disease. Smiles.
Just for the fun of it, in Firefox under Help, try pressing Enter on the
item that says:
Health Report.
What do you get there? Should give you some technical information.
Likely nothing important in this case, but just to see if it at all
could tell anything for further tracing. It at least would report if any
of your Add-ons have caused Firefox to get an aching toe. In such a
case, offering it a donut and a cup of coffee for free, might cheer it
up a bit. Smiles.
Sorry for not being of all that much help, and hope you don't mind my
sense of humor on an early Saturday morning.
On 10/7/2017 1:04 PM, bj colt via Talk wrote:
Hi David,
I followed your instructions but got the same ding noise I get when
firefox upgrqades to the latest version. I am running the 32 bit
version.
I pressed alt d, then f6. The same ding. Like being in an edit box
that is stuck there. All I hear is ding. I have uninstalled firefox 3
times since last night and each time firefox has upgraded. Even though
I have it set not to upgrade.
It is strange how some people aring this phenomenon and others aren't.
My friend is running firefox, same version as I am. windows 7. pentium
processor, 500 ghz hard drive. 8 gig ram. All very wierd.
It does seem like a focus problem but what and why?
Live long and prosper, John
-----Original Message----- From: David via Talk
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2017 11:02 AM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List ; WE English Mailinglist
Cc: David
Subject: Re: Latest Firefox, and accessibility
Forgot to say, I am still running Windows7 pro 64bit, in case the OS
might be the bottleneck.
On 10/7/2017 12:01 PM, David via Talk wrote:
I do not want to start a new lengthy arguing over accessibility issues.
Yet, a few days ago, we had a discussion running here, as to the latest
version of Firefox - 56 - which some users had experienced issues with.
I did not have any intention in running into accessibility issues, and
hence told my Firefox never to update. It is done under tools, Options,
Advanced, and choose the update tab. Nevertheless, this morning when
starting my Firefox, it still updated itself. I got the message on the
screen, that the update was taking place, and though I could say a few
things about a setting in the Firefox options, which apparently is
nothing but useless - I had no choice but to let the update complete
itself. My reasoning was that first it insisted on upgrading, I could
always roll it back afterwards.
When the upgrading was finished, I checked under Tools, Help, About -
and the current installation says
Firefox 56.0, 32bit.
I now have used it for a couple of hours, browsing around, and do
see no
trouble with this version of Firefox, along with the latest (and last)
version of WinEyes, that is, version 9.5.4.
I do recall there has been a few comments about the 64bit version of
Firefox from the past. And hence i was wondering if the users who told
us not to update to the latest Firefox, due to their accessibility
issues, would happen to be running the 64bit version.
As an alternative, in attempting to see a reason for some experiencing
trouble in latest version, I do wonder if there could be a focusing
issue. Would any of you, who initially reported the loss of
accessibility in Firefox 56, maybe want to try the following.
1. Open Firefox, and go to any website.
2. Press Alt-D, as in Delta.
3. Press F6.
4. Try navigating the website.
Are you still unable to perform any action on the page? If so, check
under Help/About,and see if you are running 64- or 32bit version.
Please
note, a 32bit software can be run perfectly well on a 64bit machine,
but
you cannot run a 64bit software on a 32bit computer. Most computers now
aday, are 64bit machines, and yet, often you are encouraged to run the
32bit software, due to the 64bit technology being more vulnerable for
technical issues.
This is no attempt in advicing anyone, in their choice of browser or
version. I am just curious why some have reported their systems facing
issues, whereas my system had none. Could it even be there was
something
going wrong in your updating process? Or, could it be due to some of
the
add-ons you have installed under Firefox, and which no longer are
up-to-date, due to the new add-on policy of the Mozilla group? Try
starting your Firefox with all Add-ons disabled, and see if that solves
any issues.
Really, it would be bad, should a number of users ditch an otherwise
good browser, or abstain from updating, due to some misunderstood
accessibility issues. That's why, I decided to report my findings,
hoping to hear from others who could shed further light on what
possibly
could cause issues for some. Perhaps we even could help them solve
their
issues, and have them back up running the Firefox browser again; even
with last version of WinEyes.
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