There you are, Tom.
Would you agree, if we try to cook it down to something even non-tech
people will understand, we might basically explain it all like this?
When we see a program well-known to Windows users, all the sudden pop up
as an app on IOS or Android - it is NOT because the program itself was
ported over. Very basically spoken, the ideas or features of the
program, even to some extent the layout, will have been transferred.
Yet, the very code behind it all, will likely to a very high extent have
been rewritten.
Let's try this with an example. Again, let's go to the traffic. When you
see a family car rolling down the street, will you then exclaim:
Hey, look, a mini truck!
Well, in essense, the car has a number of features resembling and quite
compatible with those of a truck or bus. They all have four wheels (at
least). All have a steering wheel, and they all have windows all around.
Still, you please talk to the ingeneers who designed the family car, and
ask them if they simply just could down-scale a truck, and let it out
the doors. Think of the fact, that your car has breaks that operate on
hydraulic system, whereas the truck has air-operated breaks (what is
known as pneumatic breaks). The truck definitely is running on a diesel
engine, likely your car is on gasolin or even all electric. The truck
even might have numerous wheels, tell me if you are the owner of a
family car with anything more than four. Obviously, both vihicles have
been designed for transportation, with some basics in common. And the
designers might likely have used the knowledge from one production, in
their work on the other. They might even have a certain similarity, for
instance if your family car actually would happen to be a pickup truck.
Nonetheless, they are such different constructions that they likely are
being produced on separate sites, and your local repair shop might only
do work on one of them. You even will have to get a totally different
drivers license for each.
If you Olusegun are dreaming of seeing a screen reader on Android, which
will resemble some - or most - of the features of Window-Eyes, your
dreams might be valid enough. If, on the other hand, you think someone
could simply just take the code of Window-Eyes and process it through
some kind of converter; well, just to break your day, don't even waste
your time... :)
Even on the Windows platform itself, we find several programming
languages. Some three decades ago, I started doing small tasks under one
of them, named Basic. Later on I moved on to Turbo Pascal, and when
Windows started to become the road of the day, I ran into AutoHotkey.
Then came the scripting capability of Window-Eyes, and here the VBScript
language became much the standard of most apps. I did look shortly into
JScript, and have peeked at some of the codes in Python, and even
Pearle. No, i don't expect most readers to recognize much of the names,
just want to show you some of the variety - and that is all Windows
programming. What I want to stress to you all:
Believe me, you won't be able to take code from one of these
languages, and simply copy it into the other. There does exist NO
converters, whatever your dreams might look like, that would let the one
program be ported over to another of these languages. And even for a
driven programmer, going from one language over to the other, might be
quite confusing.
Should I please get two seconds of your day, in showing you one simple
example?
In one language, the calculations performed inside the code, will always
be interpretted from left to right. an expression like:
2 plus 3, multiplied with 4 (2+3*4),
would result in the computer taking 2, adding on 3, getting 5; and then
multiplying it all with 4, resulting in a grand total of 20.
Now, bring that simple expression:
2+3*4
into the other programming language, and your surprise and frustration
will be complete. Here the interpretation takes place from right to
left. 4 will be multiplied with 3, giving us 12; and 2 will be added,
resulting in a grand total of 14.
Imagine a code of thousands of lines, where each line will be at best
wrongly interpretted - if even recognized at all, and see if your code
will run anything like expected. For your information, the free NVDA
screen reader is based on Python version 2. The newest Python is in the
third generation, but is not fully backward compatible, resulting in
NVDA still being transcribed into modern versions of the programming
language.
And all of this confusion is on one and same platform, Windows. Meaning,
it all takes place, based on much the same CPU, and underlaying
instructions. Now move to Android, you will have a totally different
CPU, with its very own set of instructions. Or, take it to IOS, and see
what Apple will want to comprehend of your code.
Oh, let's just illustrate once again. The sailor meets with the pilot,
and they decide they want to swap transportation for one day. The sailor
has a clear mind, that the only right thing for driving any
transportation will be a screw. The pilot does agree, that the
ship-screw somehow resembles a propeller
, hence they do some mechanics, and starts out. How far will the
airplane fly, with a ship-screw mounted in the front? Or, do you fancy
the pilot getting cross the Atlantic in one day, with his propeller in
the back of a ship? Sure, one is for air, the other for water driving.
No matter how much they look likewise, or how much they stole from each
other in design, materials or shape - they never can be ported from one
"platform" to the other.
Olusegun, and the other dreamers, please stop fooling yourself, in
unrealistic dreams. Window-Eyes will never be on Android. Someone might
grab the basics of it, write an app for Android, IOS or any other
platform, even naming it Window-Eyes. It will never be the same as the
computer-based screen reader. Besides, the whole idea of naming it
Window-Eyes, would be rediculous, since it won't be running under
Windows. What's more, I am not even sure, if an app under Android, can
be written to accept and run user-designed sub-apps. That is, you might
never be able to have the screen reader on a mobile device, offering you
the capability of running add-on apps, like the feature of Window-Eyes,
or even Jaws with its scripting capability. The best you could hope for,
is that someone write a totally stand-alone app, which just happens to
communicate with the screen reader, with whatever issues such a solution
might present.
Not sure if it all can be explained all that much more thoroughly,
without becoming really technical. If you are no programmer, then please
just accept the fact that a one-to-one transcription of a Windows
program into ANY mobile language, won't be possible.
Lastly, screen readers have been developed for mobile devices, for
something like a decade. Back when screen readers for Windows were one
decade into development, they were presenting a far more complete
productivity, than what we see on the mobile platforms. Olusegun, the
fact that you are able to perform all you described, is wonderful. Now,
keep in mind it all is based on different apps, that you have decided to
install on your device. Lucky you are, the app developers have made the
apps accessible. I could easily tell you numerous examples of apps that
are totally inaccessible, no matter how great the screen reader does its
job. With so many apps being developed by people with little or no
knowledge about accessibility, and the rather heavy restriction in what
the screen reader can get access to, even a good resembling of
Window-Eyes, would never get anything near the reliaility you know from
your computer. Enjoy the fact that you can do all of that in your
business and daily activity. Certain of the tasks I am relying on in
mine, simply cannot be performed in a satisfactory way on Android, due
to lacking capabilities in the app. Doesn't help with a good screen
reader, if it cannot get the input it needs.
On 8/30/2018 7:09 AM, Tom Kingston via Talk wrote:
Olusegun,
Just for the record, Office was not ported to Android. Generally
speaking, programs can be ported between Windows, MacOS, and Linux,
or, Universal Windows Platform, iOS, and Android. These are
essentially two different classes of platforms: desktop and mobile.
The core difference is that they use different CPUs.
So Office was rewritten for mobile platforms. This then requires
compilation to a machine independent intermediate code layer. That
intermediate code must then be separately compiled to each platform or
use an interpreter, the latter of which compiles the code on the fly.
The bottom line is that programs that have been around since the dawn
of Windows have hundreds of thousands of lines of code exclusive to
core components of the operating system. There is no automation that
can rewrite the meaning of life for these programs.
Relatively speaking, designing programs for portability is a new-age
approach brought on mostly by the mobile evolution. And still, this is
no magic wand. This is why most of the biggest accessibility apps have
been developed for iOS and Android users then have to wait a year or
two before they're ported over to that platform.
Regards,
Tom
On 8/29/2018 6:27 PM, Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via
Talk wrote:
David, I enjoyed reading your post; it did present some interesting
angles
regarding my thought process.
I believe that the impossible is that which has not been tried. We could
all wake up tomorrow and hear an important announcement: Jaws for
Android
is here! Shall we throw up our arms in the air in disgust? I doubt
that.
If nothing else, many of us will play ball with it and see where its
chips
land. After all, in Android Land, you can have as many screen
readers as
you choose--Talkback, ShinePlus can be used in any Android toy;
VoiceAssistant and VoiceViews are still partial to their creators,
Samsung
and Amazon in that order. I've never been a programmer; yet, I've seen
Windows apps being ported over to Android. A good example is Outlook,
another is Word and, yes, Excel is available on the Android platform.
I may be odd, but I do love and appreciate being able to use touchscreen
toys! I am, as of the present moment, equally productive on my Shiny
Android toys as I am using a keyboard with a computer. I taught
myself all
that I do and I ask questions of more knowledgeable folks when I am
stuck.
No, I'm not a guru and do not frankly wish to be one--nonetheless, if it
weren't for the legacy Windows app that are work related, I shall have
divorced Windows and keep on running with ONLY Android TOYS in my
pocket! I
do a lot of travel, I see touchscreen terminals lined up forever at
airports. Sadly, they are not accessible. To get around that for
the time
being, I bring all I need with me for my trips. Example, I check in and
print my own burden pass all the time before heading out to the airport.
I'm STINGY ENOUGH not to CHECK BAGS, so there's never an argument
there. In
fact, I don't even go to the airline counter, I head straight to the
T S A
security line. Oh, I have also CLEARED T S A security checks so i don't
need to remove my underwear, belts or shoes to pass through the
screening
process. Guess I'm crazy lucky and I realise that not everyone is
similarly
situated. The clearance I have is NOT FREE, cost $100 for five years, I
renew it again in 2023 if I'm still breathing and a bit less
troublesome,
<LOL!>
There are a heck of a lot of things I can do with my touchscreen
phone which
a computer or any currently available access technology DO NOT make
possible. For instance, if I don't wish to print my burden pass and
carry a
piece of paper in my pocket, I can simply show it on my touchscreen
Shiny
Android toy to a screener at the security gate, or at an airline
check-in
counter. I'm one person who prefers 99% of everything electronically
'cause
the prospects of a misplacement is sharply reduced for me. Heck, for
international travels, I can CLEAR THE U.S. CUSTOMS electronically on my
touchscreen Shiny Android toy even before I board my flight back
home. No
computer or access technology will help me do that, but my Shiny Android
toys do and they fit snugly in my chest pocket.
Thus, I can keep hope alive; it may or may not happen.
Notwithstanding, I
sure hope that someone much more brilliant than I figures out a way to
resurrect Window-Eyes as a screen reader on the Android platform! In
some
shape or form, we've been here before: Window-Eyes was dying, some
of us
shouted it out from the treetops and were sent to the gas chambers so we
could be forgotten and never heard from. Fortunately, the doors of
the gas
chambers DIDN'T CLOSE before we were vindicated. Should the hope I
nurse
become a reality, this beggar who wishes for what is classified as
impossible surely wants to ride into town with happiness pushing a
Window-Eyes for Android cart!
Sincerely,
Olusegun
Denver, Colorado
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