I'm starting to get reallly pissed off by this thread and, sorry to say so, your ignorance of the bigger picture.
marc fleury wrote: > .. > decisions" make it look like an exclusive OR. Frankly for most the > cases I talk about , declaring my template with title and what not, is > much easier in a jsp like environment and greatly speeds up development. So use JSP or Struts. Have a blast. > You want to do the professional thing, and knock yourself out with all No, we _need_ to do 'the professional thing', simply because we want to go places where JSP and the rest of the fucked up Java web 'framework' travesty cannot take us. It's bad enough that Sun has managed to pervert the software world with Java and their useless J2EE dog and pony show. Tapestry is about being _different_. Better _necessarily_ means different. > the files "to enforce type safety and bla bla bla", you can. Is it > useful? I will take your word, but we can have both. How do you know? I take it you've been working in web app development for several years with different teams? > The API is there? great! PLEASE do it. IF "spindle" is like WOF/GUI and > generates the mumbo-jumbo files, that is great. Where can I get that Spindle is a plugin for the eclipse IDE and can be found on SF. It's not even close to WO's WOBuilder, but that's irrelevant. Btw, you'd be extremely unhappy about the way the WOBuilder works since it gives you _even less_ stuff to mess up in your template. How's that for a surprise? > everyone? hell no, will it send most newbies back to WOF and Struts? > hell yes. You guys argue that the generic framework is the most err, no. If there's one thing that people complain about WO it's that it has a pretty steep learning curve in a _completely different league_ than Struts. Personally I couldn't care less about how many people are 'put off' because they can't code their way out of their wet pants and rather want to play low end fiddle. I need a high end tool and its relevance for solving high end problems is completely unrelated to the number of people who don't understand it. > powerful, it is a dull point and I don't care, the framework is > fiendlishly un-friendly to newbies and jsp coders. Does that mean you > should do away with it? no. I'll tell you what: maybe we should do away with the JSP 'coders'. Seriously. > I don't want a .page for all the 200 html I have and I don't want to > declare the 200 pages, because I am going to forget most of them in the > .application and don't want to write the servlet either cause I don't > need it... <phew/> Important message: TAPESTRY IS NOT FOR YOU. Stop thinking in 'pages'. For what you want to do Turbine/Velocity would be a much better approach. > We agree that "you need it sometimes", it doesn't mean that all of us > should pay for those cases where you need. Pay the price for what you Half the software world has to pay for the fucked up ideas that the losers at Sun have foisted upon our profession. Payback time! > use, when you use it and if absolutely needed. Right now the price to > entry is a bit high (2 days of mighty moi ;) for no good justification > at my level. As a certified WO trainer I can assure you that WO has at least a 3 month climbing curve - for people who grok OO. I usually calculate 4-6 months of playground development before people are up for serious projects. Training countless people successfully has so far proven me (and several colleagues) right. What's with the 'instant expert' mentality? > Introducing complexity as you go is the staple of a superior product. I > am worried that you guys take pride in the price to entry to your > framework. No, 'we' don't. However we _do_ understand that linear complexity curves are at best an illusion. Btw, you just described a common complaint about EJB and its byzantine architecture. I'd like to hear you rant about that. The optional flexibility that you want _will_ lead to an architectural and development/best practices split. Having it 'both ways' is a sure recipe for desaster; if averting that means pissing off 'the JSP crowd' I'm all for it. sorry Marc - most people who decided to look into Tapestry have seen the other side of the fence, while keeping an open mind all the way though. I suggest you try that, too. And - no offense - if you think that you're so smart that you need two friggin' days to grok something like Tapestry or WebObjects you're naive beyond hope. -h ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf _______________________________________________ Tapestry-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tapestry-developer
