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> > Ok, perhaps I'm confused.  Do you disagree with the later part - that
> > Freenet/dark will no longer be dark if it grows?  Or do you disagree with
> > the conclusion - that not providing the functionality for its users as
> > it grows means it "doesn't scale"?
>
> It may have to provide slightly different functionality for larger
> numbers of users in hostile environments, if and as they become
> increasingly hostile.

This doesn't make sense - its like saying Tor can provide high latency
comm if it turns into mixminon.  Yes, if you build a different system
with different characteristics 2 years down the road, that different
system will be different.  The same folks behind Tor are behind
mixminion (at least, to some degree), but that doesn't make them the
same project.

> I believe that it will offer means to hide its users. Initially by
> being unharvestable, and then by simple steganography over
> the internet (which can probably be detected by local traffic flow
> analysis), and then by dropping real time delivery and using safer
> steganography (which can probably be detected by semiglobal traffic flow
> analysis), and finally by using non-internet transports. It may well be
> possible for the state to defeat all of these mechanisms, but it will
> cost them significant resources and time, and the system will be highly
> useful in the meantime. And many semi-oppressive states (I would put
> China in this category) won't bother.

What part of the above couldn't apply to I2P?

> They've only just got around to blocking freenet's session bytes this year!

Yet they've already started blocking skype. (matter of economics)

> > You've already agreed that both I2P and Freenet/dark offer essentially
> > the same functionality in hostile regimes, including resistance to 
> > harvesting [1].  The only difference is that you believe "Freenet/dark
> > will scale better".
> >
> > [1] http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2005-October/000975.html
>
> No, I haven't. Freenet/dark will allow a large darknet inside china with
> a relatively number of external links. I2P/RR will allow a small darknet
> attached to each link.

Connolly said:
 "Thus, I2P 2.0 and Freenet 0.7 both offer the same restricted routing
  possibilities to Chinese dissenters."

To which you replied:
 "Essentially yes."

In the context of that email, there is no reason to constrain the 'B'
subset to any particular size, to limit the 'A' subset to communicating
with just one of those peers, or to limit the 'B' subset's interactions
amongst each other.

> The former is preferable for various reasons, the obvious one being
> efficiency.

Ok, so the essence of the difference is that you believe Freenet will
be more efficient than I2P?  That Freenet's routing will have less
hops than I2P's O(1)?  That Freenet will require less bandwidth
overhead?  You really believe that?

> Additionally, freenet/dark can function in the absence of _ANY_ external
> links.

This is true, without using peers outside the adversary's region of
influence, they'd have to have their own internal 'C' peers, which would
likely be shut down.  Though at the scale such a network would run at,
the anonet thing would probably work fine.

> Freenet/dark is a stego *network*. It just doesn't have any real stego
> *transports* yet.

If a pony sprouted wings, you'd have a flying pony, too.

There is no evidence that stego transports will ever happen, or at least,
happen anytime soon.  There is neither any practice nor theory suggesting
how they /could/ operate, which leads me to leave it to others researching
in that field, rather than hoping someone will figure it out.  I do look
forward to hearing progress on such an effort, as it'd be really quite
kickass to have a workable stego transport.  But i'm not holding my breath.

=jr
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