On Sun, Feb 03, 2019 at 01:13:18AM +0100, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > Hi Jason, > > oh well, these files are a mess, a random collection of funny > and not so funny stuff... I dislike this one, too, for several > reasons. >
hey, don;t be so down on the fortune files! while i don;t neccessarily like your translation, i do defer to your knowledge of these matters (i did wave the don;t know latin flag upfront). so please go ahead and fix it - you'll be contributing to an important part of openbsd! jmc > 1. While "ad astra per aspera" sometimes occurs, the word order > "per aspera ad astra" is much more commonly used. It sounds > much better - not only because it respects the logical > chronological order, but even more so for metric reasons: > "per aspera ad astra" follows a loosely trochaic rhythm > " - | X- (x)- X- " while "ad astra per aspera" has no > discernible metric whatsoever: " - | X- | - X-- ". > > 2. It doesn't actually appear to be an antique or even medieval > latin proverb but merely a modern invention. > > 3. According to my latin dictionary, "ad astra" did occur in > antiquity, in a strongly metaphoric sense where "astra = heaven, > immortality, sphere and home of the gods" rather than "stars" - > though the only source cited there is Vergilius, Aeneis: > Macte nova virtute, puer, sic itur ad astra. > literal (hence somewhat misleading) translation: > Blessings on your young courage, boy; that's the way to the stars. > free translation, capturing the meaning and register better: > Go on and increase in valor, O boy! this is the path to immortality. > See e.g. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aeneid > Seneca also appears to use it in the context of a demi-god > (Hercules) interacting with the Olympians. > > So "ad astra" appears to be a rather unsual phrase, highly poetic, > suited to heroic legends about gods and super-human men interacting > directly with the greatest gods. > > 4. According to my latin dictionary, "asper" is a very common > adjective with a wide range of everyday concrete meanings: > rough, uneven, sharp, coarse, gruff, wild, disagreeable, > sorrowful, severe, rancorous, ... and more. > It was sometimes - but much less commonly, it appears - > used as a noun, though usually with a qualification in the > genitive, e.g. "aspera maris" = tempests (Tacitus). > When used alone as a noun, it appears to have a relatively > narrow, figurative, relatively mild meaning of "tribulations, > annoying trouble, misfortune"; translations like "hardship" or > "adversity" appear to exceed the severity of "asper(a)", > making it sound too much like serious emergency and distress. > > So a fitting translation of "per aspera ad astra", approximating > the meaning and stylistic register of both parts, might be > > "overcoming annoying problems to be elevated immortality" > > which sounds, yes, ridiculous. > > The word "aspiration" is definitely a blatant mistranslation. > > So if you want to keep the entry, i'd recommend > > Per aspera ad astra. (Through hardship to immortality.) > > because that is probably how it is commonly understood today, with > a weakened sense of "immortality" = "greatness, being remembered > for one's achievements after death", and it is also a compromise > not too far deviating from the actual meaning of the latin words, > even if sharpening "aspera" a bit and weakening "astra" somewhat > to smooth out content and and stylistic register. > > I think while the literal translation "to the stars" might work in > a heroic legend, it is quite misleading out of context and ought > to be fixed. > > Yours, > Ingo > > P.S. > I don't know why i looked at this so closely given my disdain for > these files - but from time to time, it appears i fail to sufficiently > tame my appetite for literature. > > > > i agree "aspiration" looks like a mistake. i suspect the intention > > was "asperity", which means harshness and rigour. there is a verb, > > asperate, but i think it's a bit obsolete. > > "Asperity" certainly matches the *adjective* "asper", but it matches > the *noun* "aspera" much less than "hardship" or "adversity" or > simply "trouble". > > > i'm a bit reluctant to just follow wikipedia blindly. i think the > > latin is pural, and "hardships" doesn;t sound awesome when plural. > > The grammatical form is unimportant for the translation in this > case. "aspara" (pl.) = "hardship, adversity" (sing.) is OK, just > like you can translate "glasses" (pl.) to "Brille" (german, sing.). > The idea in the Latin word is that it is plural because more than > one unfortunate element is required to cause hardship, but that > is already adequately expressed in the singular form "hardship". > > > also i prefer "by" to "through": since it's latin, a little > > archaicism is good. > > Not really. It is fake latin, not a real proverb, but a modern > invention. So it should sound natural and modern. > > > "adversity" would be easily understood and have the correct meaning > > (i think). but the translation you recommend (by Finn) restructures > > the phrase. i think it should begin "To the stars" (that's a minus > > for wikipedia too). so "To the stars by adversity." > > You should really invert the order to improve the metric > and follow chronologic order as well as the usual wording. > > > though i suspect "asperity" would have most of us reaching for our > > dictionaries, it's not neccessarily a bad thing. it seems the > > best fit to me. > > No, it only creates a mysterious aura around something that is > actually quite profane and simplistic and maybe even slightly > presumptous in some contexts. >
