On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote: > It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is > human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After > a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, > several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That > humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. > It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and > then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably > carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so > that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free > gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their > expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before > they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you > feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just > put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but > guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other > surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up > truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many > have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, > it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the > dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? > Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up > caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty > again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that > still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first > place. > Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. > Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a > "feel good" measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come > back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. > Same as a petition. > Some individuals need a "cause". Seems like the person mentioned below has > found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. > By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- > stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a > warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are > restricted to just one cave? > The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, > decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, > reproducible results. > Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. > All of this is simply emotion based bad science. > Carl……. > On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: > >> Total waste of time. >> >> CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact >> that they can reap millions in litigation. >> >> This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. >> >> Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by >> repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has >> never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it >> being endlessly repeated as fact. >> >> Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is >> going to change. >> >> Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to >> emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no >> interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a >> blip on the money screen. >> >> Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on >> any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of >> your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in >> the wind. >> >> >> On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public >>>> >>>> As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all >>>> public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. >>>> This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when >>>> responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the >>>> bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can >>>> be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever >>>> existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to >>>> conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, >>>> and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this >>>> cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. >>>> >>>> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> John Dunham >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SWR mailing list >> s...@caver.net >> http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net >
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