texascavers Digest 13 Mar 2013 01:35:01 -0000 Issue 1720
Topics (messages 21410 through 21423):
Re: Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
21410 by: Brian Riordan
21411 by: Allan B. Cobb
21413 by: Allan B. Cobb
21414 by: Oztotl
21419 by: George Veni
NaturFest Report # 3
21412 by: David
concrete stalactites
21415 by: Mixon Bill
21418 by: Louise Power
21420 by: Preston Forsythe
21423 by: R D Milhollin
Re: [Mocaves] Man survives sinkhole in IL
21416 by: Bill Bentley
21417 by: Geary Schindel
News from Bustamante
21421 by: William H. Russell
Re: [Spring Convention Meeting of TSA]
21422 by: Jill Orr
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--- Begin Message ---
This last summer I crawled through the bowels of an abandoned WWII army
fort out in Resurrection Bay Alaska (abandonned 1944). The roof was
covered with soda staws along cracks in the ceiling, some 3-4 inches long.
Important to note that soda straw growth is only possible during the summer
as winter temperatures will stop the mineral water flow.
Cheers,
-Brian
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Neal Hines <hine0...@umn.edu> wrote:
> This morning I read a geochemistry text on carbonate mineralization that
> gave an example of how much stalactites might grow in one year: 0.19
> mm/year. It's a recent book (Merkel et al. Groundwater Geochemistry 2008).
> Assumptions: partial pressure CO2 of 3% (charged up from soils) degassing
> to 0.03% (by volume; atmospheric level), 100L of water dripping from the
> ceiling, and the ceiling covered by 15% stalactites.
> Cavers all know this growth varies by quite a bit, but this might serve
> as a rough upper end growth rate. So, within a caver's life of 70 years,
> you could see a formation grow by over 1 cm! Lending truth to the
> observation I've heard of some cavers that, "this passage has shifted since
> I was here last." Sodastraws can grow even faster I believe & I'm sure
> people will have opinions on that.
> Also, thanks to Ron Green for doing the webinar on Geophysics in karst
> landscapes last night. I caught only the tail end, but there were tons of
> questions and very interested participants.
> -Neal Hines
>
>
>
>>
>> ****
>>
>
>
--
Brian Riordan
979-218-8009 (Mobile)
riordan.br...@gmail.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In Guatemala, I have seen calcite almost completely covering flagging tape that
we left surveying the year before. I have seen stalagmites about 50 cm tall
growing out of Maya vessels that are a little more than a thousand years old. I
have seen photos of one almost a meter high growing out of a 1000 year old Maya
vessel. The growth rate of speleothems is highly variable.
Allan
From: Neal Hines
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:33 AM
To: nealahi...@gmail.com
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
This morning I read a geochemistry text on carbonate mineralization that gave
an example of how much stalactites might grow in one year: 0.19 mm/year. It's a
recent book (Merkel et al. Groundwater Geochemistry 2008).
Assumptions: partial pressure CO2 of 3% (charged up from soils) degassing to
0.03% (by volume; atmospheric level), 100L of water dripping from the ceiling,
and the ceiling covered by 15% stalactites.
Cavers all know this growth varies by quite a bit, but this might serve as a
rough upper end growth rate. So, within a caver's life of 70 years, you could
see a formation grow by over 1 cm! Lending truth to the observation I've heard
of some cavers that, "this passage has shifted since I was here last."
Sodastraws can grow even faster I believe & I'm sure people will have opinions
on that.
Also, thanks to Ron Green for doing the webinar on Geophysics in karst
landscapes last night. I caught only the tail end, but there were tons of
questions and very interested participants.
-Neal Hines
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are correct Don, I thought about those as soon as I hit send. Maya vessels
about 40 cm in diameter completely encased in columns about a meter wide at the
base and more than 2 meters tall. There were three of them (that we could see)
in the cave.
Allan
From: Don Arburn
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:55 PM
To: Allan B. Cobb
Cc: Neal Hines ; nealahi...@gmail.com ; Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
Don't forget those vessels completely encompassed by formations to the point
they were really no longer visible in the column, except where looters hammered
away to expose them.
Sent cellularly.
-Don
On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Allan B. Cobb" <a...@oztotl.com> wrote:
In Guatemala, I have seen calcite almost completely covering flagging tape
that we left surveying the year before. I have seen stalagmites about 50 cm
tall growing out of Maya vessels that are a little more than a thousand years
old. I have seen photos of one almost a meter high growing out of a 1000 year
old Maya vessel. The growth rate of speleothems is highly variable.
Allan
From: Neal Hines
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:33 AM
To: nealahi...@gmail.com
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
This morning I read a geochemistry text on carbonate mineralization that gave
an example of how much stalactites might grow in one year: 0.19 mm/year. It's a
recent book (Merkel et al. Groundwater Geochemistry 2008).
Assumptions: partial pressure CO2 of 3% (charged up from soils) degassing to
0.03% (by volume; atmospheric level), 100L of water dripping from the ceiling,
and the ceiling covered by 15% stalactites.
Cavers all know this growth varies by quite a bit, but this might serve as a
rough upper end growth rate. So, within a caver's life of 70 years, you could
see a formation grow by over 1 cm! Lending truth to the observation I've heard
of some cavers that, "this passage has shifted since I was here last."
Sodastraws can grow even faster I believe & I'm sure people will have opinions
on that.
Also, thanks to Ron Green for doing the webinar on Geophysics in karst
landscapes last night. I caught only the tail end, but there were tons of
questions and very interested participants.
-Neal Hines
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Don't forget those vessels completely encompassed by formations to the point
>> they were really no longer visible in the column, except where looters
>> hammered away to expose them.
>>
>> Sent cellularly.
>> -Don
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Allan B. Cobb" <a...@oztotl.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In Guatemala, I have seen calcite almost completely covering flagging tape
>>> that we left surveying the year before. I have seen stalagmites about 50 cm
>>> tall growing out of Maya vessels that are a little more than a thousand
>>> years old. I have seen photos of one almost a meter high growing out of a
>>> 1000 year old Maya vessel. The growth rate of speleothems is highly
>>> variable.
>>>
>>> Allan
>>>
>>> From: Neal Hines
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:33 AM
>>> To: nealahi...@gmail.com
>>> Cc: Texas Cavers
>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
>>>
>>> This morning I read a geochemistry text on carbonate mineralization that
>>> gave an example of how much stalactites might grow in one year: 0.19
>>> mm/year. It's a recent book (Merkel et al. Groundwater Geochemistry 2008).
>>> Assumptions: partial pressure CO2 of 3% (charged up from soils) degassing
>>> to 0.03% (by volume; atmospheric level), 100L of water dripping from the
>>> ceiling, and the ceiling covered by 15% stalactites.
>>> Cavers all know this growth varies by quite a bit, but this might serve as
>>> a rough upper end growth rate. So, within a caver's life of 70 years, you
>>> could see a formation grow by over 1 cm! Lending truth to the observation
>>> I've heard of some cavers that, "this passage has shifted since I was here
>>> last." Sodastraws can grow even faster I believe & I'm sure people will
>>> have opinions on that.
>>> Also, thanks to Ron Green for doing the webinar on Geophysics in karst
>>> landscapes last night. I caught only the tail end, but there were tons of
>>> questions and very interested participants.
>>> -Neal Hines
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The mostly amazingly rapid stal growth I've seen or heard of is at Grutas de
Tolantongo in central Mexico. The water is highly mineralized, very warm,
ranging from 36-40C, and it flows fast and hard from every crack in the cave.
Every time I've been there, it looks a little different as new curtains, etc.
form and older ones get blown away by annual flooding. During my last trip
there in 1992, I stepped into the entrance room and looked into the back-right
corner for the passage leading to the second room. I didn't see it. After being
disoriented for a minute or two, I realized that a 3-m long by 2-m diameter
stalactite had grown in front of the passage to the second room and hid it in
the few years since I had last been there! My photos from earlier trips don't
show any stalactite growing there.
George
********************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:a...@oztotl.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:26 PM
To: Neal Hines; nealahi...@gmail.com
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
In Guatemala, I have seen calcite almost completely covering flagging tape that
we left surveying the year before. I have seen stalagmites about 50 cm tall
growing out of Maya vessels that are a little more than a thousand years old. I
have seen photos of one almost a meter high growing out of a 1000 year old Maya
vessel. The growth rate of speleothems is highly variable.
Allan
From: Neal Hines<mailto:hine0...@umn.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:33 AM
To: nealahi...@gmail.com<mailto:nealahi...@gmail.com>
Cc: Texas Cavers<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>
Subject: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
This morning I read a geochemistry text on carbonate mineralization that gave
an example of how much stalactites might grow in one year: 0.19 mm/year. It's a
recent book (Merkel et al. Groundwater Geochemistry 2008).
Assumptions: partial pressure CO2 of 3% (charged up from soils) degassing to
0.03% (by volume; atmospheric level), 100L of water dripping from the ceiling,
and the ceiling covered by 15% stalactites.
Cavers all know this growth varies by quite a bit, but this might serve as a
rough upper end growth rate. So, within a caver's life of 70 years, you could
see a formation grow by over 1 cm! Lending truth to the observation I've heard
of some cavers that, "this passage has shifted since I was here last."
Sodastraws can grow even faster I believe & I'm sure people will have opinions
on that.
Also, thanks to Ron Green for doing the webinar on Geophysics in karst
landscapes last night. I caught only the tail end, but there were tons of
questions and very interested participants.
-Neal Hines
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2:00 a.m. Sunday March 10th, about 8 kids still watching DVD movies in the
camp lodge. This was supposed to be a theatre like program, but all the
equipment purchased never left the storage building.
It rained hard from 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. but the other 23 campers were dry
under a shelter. I never had time to properly set-up my tent, and my
make-shift rain-fly let in some cool water.
Sunday morning was perfect for a bonfire. I got the fire going early and
the kids kept it burning all day.
We had the most awesome Sunday morning breakfast in the history of caving
events. About 8 Mexican ladies worked hard in the kitchen to throw the
best breakfast feast in my nearly 49 years on this planet.
The weather forecast was so wrong. The day was gorgeous.
We all had a bicycle parade along Happy Hollow Rd. Had this happened
2,000 years ago, it would now be a worshipped biblical/koranical event,
with speleo-pilgrims marching annually from the 4 corners of the earth to
kiss the sacred pavement of Happy Hollow Rd.
The remaining 25 guest were having a once-in-a-lifetime type experience
that went on till sunset on Sunday.
The adults cleaned up what they felt was their fair share and then packed
up their kids and left.
>From 7 pm till 1 am Monday morning, it was just me left to try to get the
campground suitable to the owner's very strict desires.
After quickly dumping off NaturFest gear in the NaturFest storage building
in Brenham, I drove 12 miles east to the town of Chappell Hill where I
found an alley behind a real-estate office. I attempted to sleep in the
front seat of the car there for about 4 hours. I made it home safely by
noon on Monday. I was able to quickly unload stuff and get to work in
time to complete the urgent deliveries that I had post-poned in order to
host NaturFest.
And then checked into a cheap motel in Houston to recuperate.
To be continued ....
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The chemistry of stalactite growth on the bottom of concrete ceilings
is different from the chemistry of stalactites in limestone caves. But
yes, they do look similar, although under concrete I've never heard of
more than just soda-straw size things or thin films. I suspect the
process there tends to clog up openings and shut down infiltration,
whereas water flowing downward into caves tends to enlarge openings
that aren't exposed to open air.
That quantitative estimate, which depends totally on the assumptions,
of course, reminds me of my illustration of how small molecules are:
If a 1 kilogram stalactite was deposited by one drop per second for a
million years, each drop deposited about 200 billion molecules of
calcium carbonate. So much for those show-cave guides who say that
each drop deposits "a few" molecules. (You might be able to do that
rough calculation in your head, if you remember high-school chemistry
and happen to know that there are about 30 million seconds in a year.)
-- Mixon
----------------------------------------
Don't be led astray into the paths of virtue.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When the Rice Grotto was exploring the "Caves of Houston," we found soda
straws, draperies and a few other formations. Somewhere in the depths of my
slide collections (you remember slides), I have pictures. When I finally
retire, just like a lot of the other people I caved with I'm going to scan my
slides (if they don't come up with something better by then).
Louise
> From: bmixon...@austin.rr.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:09:35 -0500
> Subject: [Texascavers] concrete stalactites
>
> The chemistry of stalactite growth on the bottom of concrete ceilings
> is different from the chemistry of stalactites in limestone caves. But
> yes, they do look similar, although under concrete I've never heard of
> more than just soda-straw size things or thin films. I suspect the
> process there tends to clog up openings and shut down infiltration,
> whereas water flowing downward into caves tends to enlarge openings
> that aren't exposed to open air.
>
> That quantitative estimate, which depends totally on the assumptions,
> of course, reminds me of my illustration of how small molecules are:
> If a 1 kilogram stalactite was deposited by one drop per second for a
> million years, each drop deposited about 200 billion molecules of
> calcium carbonate. So much for those show-cave guides who say that
> each drop deposits "a few" molecules. (You might be able to do that
> rough calculation in your head, if you remember high-school chemistry
> and happen to know that there are about 30 million seconds in a year.)
> -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Don't be led astray into the paths of virtue.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Calc. the # of sec. in a year caused me to flash back to around 1975 when
Ronnie Fiesler was a NSS Director and had recently returned from a board
meeting in DC and reported to a TSA meeting at San Marcos that he had
observed Tites and Mites under the stairs of the Washington Monument. What a
phenom. If I ever go to DC I am going to check that out.
Preston in KY
-----------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mixon Bill" <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
To: "Cavers Texas" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:09 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] concrete stalactites
The chemistry of stalactite growth on the bottom of concrete ceilings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before their destruction several years back the "Dallas North Central Caverns"
had some pretty spectacular calcite formations. There are some "urban caving"
sites in Fort Worth where I have observed soda straws growing where concrete
structure butted up to other material (brickwork and iron pipe) in the same
passageway. The formations there were pearl white to transparent and grew fast
and long, up to 4 feet in length. Vandalism or pulse flooding took those out
some time back, but last time I looked they seem to be growing back.
________________________________
From: Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com>
To: texas cavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] concrete stalactites
When the Rice Grotto was exploring the "Caves of Houston," we found soda
straws, draperies and a few other formations. Somewhere in the depths of my
slide collections (you remember slides), I have pictures. When I finally
retire, just like a lot of the other people I caved with I'm going to scan my
slides (if they don't come up with something better by then).
Louise
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathy.
To: moca...@caver.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:02 PM
Subject: [Mocaves] Man survives sinkhole in IL
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/03/12/golfer-survives-after-sinkhole-opens-underneath-him-at-illinois-course/?test=latestnews?cmpid=prn_aol&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl27%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D282561
Man survives sinkhole.
Kathy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Mocaves mailing list
moca...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mocaves
_______________________________________________
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a similar post on CNN web page where Phillip Moss, NSS caver and karst
hydrogeologist gets some good press.
Geary
From: Bill Bentley [mailto:ca...@caver.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:15 PM
To: Texascavers Mailing List
Cc: s...@caver.net; PBSS Mailing List
Subject: [Texascavers] Fw: [Mocaves] Man survives sinkhole in IL
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathy.<mailto:rapp...@aol.com>
To: moca...@caver.net<mailto:moca...@caver.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:02 PM
Subject: [Mocaves] Man survives sinkhole in IL
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/03/12/golfer-survives-after-sinkhole-opens-underneath-him-at-illinois-course/?test=latestnews?cmpid=prn_aol&icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl27%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D282561
Man survives sinkhole.
Kathy.
________________________________
_______________________________________________
Mocaves mailing list
moca...@caver.net<mailto:moca...@caver.net>
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mocaves
_______________________________________________
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Russell (Bill Russell's brother) just
visited Bustamante. He spoke with Sr. Martín
Rico, the superintendent of the Grutas de Palmito
Park. Sr. Rico said that he would roll out the
welcome mat for any cavers who wanted to come
visit the cave. Sr. Rico can be contacted at the
following phone number: 8291010143
--Philip Russell, via William
--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX 78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL: 512-940-8336
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will be there for this one. :)
713 805 6214
-----Original Message-----
From: Oztotl [mailto:d...@oztotl.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2013 4:53 PM
To: TSA Cavers List
Subject: [Texascavers] [Spring Convention Meeting of TSA]
Please send agenda items to me soon. Also, PLEASE ATTEND. Who knows what I
could do to the TSA unsupervised.
Sent cellularly.
-Don
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