texascavers Digest 22 May 2011 15:51:39 -0000 Issue 1317
Topics (messages 17843 through 17848):
Robber Baron Today
17843 by: Geary Schindel
Re: Texascavers and Facebook registration
17844 by: Rod Goke
17845 by: Brandon Cook
17846 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
A warning from the future
17847 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
Forum? Cavechat!
17848 by: R D Milhollin
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--- Begin Message ---
Charles Nystrom had his Eagle Project at Robber Baron Cave today and he did an
Excellent job. His project included the construction of a picnic table on the
property and also the removal of sediment that washed into the cave when the
railroad cribbing was removed some years ago. More than 30 people showed up
and worked on the project. Brush and some sediment on the property were also
removed. Charles really did a great job coordinating the project. There was a
good mix of cavers, fellow JROTC members from his high school, and Venture Crew
410 members. His folks provided lunch for everyone (Thank you very much).
After the work, Joe Mitchell and Charles led interested folks in a tour of
Robber Baron Cave.
Thanks to Joe Mitchell and the other caves that gave up their Saturday to work
with a fine group of young men and women. Also to the Texas Cave Management
Association for making their properties available for Scouts and Venture Crew
members on Eagle projects. Thanks to Joe M, Ellie W, Mike H, Josh R, Lori H,
Sue S, Aspen S, Steve G., Rob and Journey B, Cindi and Batrice, Evelynn and
Kayla M, Fran H, James and Mimi J, and Zach S. Sorry if I missed anyone.
Thanks,
Geary Schindel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Katie and Charles both made good points on this issue. I agree with Charles that making Texascavers a member of Facebook would be likely to generate too much unwanted traffic and drive more people away, but what if it were done with a separate FB (Facebook) list, similar to the existing OT list, to which cavers could subscribe if they were interested?
Regardless of whether or not this is done, I agree with Jim and others that announcements of general interest to cavers should be copied to the main Texascavers list even if they are posted to Facebook. The main reason for a separate FB list would be to give the Facebook enthusiasts a convenient way to copy messages to their caver friends who are not registered with Facebook, even when those messages are not sufficiently "on topic" to post on Texascavers.
This might help somewhat to alleviate the split that has been growing recently within the caving community between those who want to use Facebook and those who do not. On one side, we have Facebook enthusiasts who are increasingly using Facebook to communicate with their caver friends and announce caving related events. They apparently either don't know or don't care much about the potential privacy pitfalls of Facebook and tend to assume that anyone who hasn't signed up for it has simply failed to do so out of ignorance about its benefits. On the other side, we have people (like myself) who have been resisting pressure to sign up for Facebook, because of concern about some of Facebook's privacy related policies and practices. In some cases, people may be reluctant to sign up strictly out of concern for their own privacy, and in other cases, people also may be concerned about the broader long range social implications of these policies and practices. After all, Facebook now has significantly more users than the entire population of the United States, so whatever it does can have major consequences, both nationally and internationally.
Facebook hardly allows you to do anything until you "sign up", or register, with them, and this registration procedure demands your real name, email address, sex, and date of birth. Most troubling is the demand for your date of birth, since giving this information in combination with your name is technically similar to providing your social security number, in that, for most people, it forms a unique identifier which can be used to link whatever data Facebook has about you together with data about you in other databases. This information, like your social security number, has significant potential for misuse, either by identity thieves gaining unauthorized access to the data or by corporate and/or government entities using the database in ways you never anticipated. Consequently, it is information that should be given to a company only on a legitimate "need to know" basis, not just to any company that thinks it can generate more money from its database by including your date of birth. Facebook's sign up page claims that they require "all users to provide their real date of birth to encourage authenticity and provide only age-appropriate access to content," but, in my opinion, this hardly constitutes a legitimate "need to know." How does it "encourage authenticity" when people can just as easily lie about their date of birth as they can anything else? If they truly want the information to provide only age-appropriate access to content, then they could just as well ask whether your age falls within certain relevant ranges, without requiring your precise date of birth.
A mechanism similar to what Katie suggested, but perhaps with a separate list to overcome the problem Charles mentioned, might help to bridge the gap between the users and the nonusers of Facebook within the caving community. Cavers concerned about Facebook's privacy issues might prefer to use this mechanism, just as people concerned about Google's privacy issues often prefer to use startpage.com or startingpage.com instead of google.com for their Google searches (something worth trying if you're not already familiar with it). I'm not sure whether or not the suggested mechanism would actually work out, but it's something for the cavers to consider if Charles is willing to look into it.
Rod
rod.g...@ieee.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith
Sent: May 19, 2011 11:41 AM
To: Katherine Arens
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com, Mark Minton
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA-ANL, Facebook, and caving
Katie, it COULD, but I won't do it, I'm sorry, facebook just doesn't have
any proper filters in place, and it would just spam the list, driving more
people away.
Nice idea though.
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Katherine Arens
wrote:
> Radical suggestion: could "texascavers@texascavers.com" become a member
> of facebook? If so, then what "it" posts could be forwarded to the list . .
> .
> katie
>
>
> Elegantly stated, Jim. I think David must spend more time on
>> Facebook than most anyone I know, and I doubt he is representative of cavers
>> in general. If people insist on using Facebook or any other social medium
>> for caving announcements, at the very least they should cc Texascavers
>> (CaveTex) with the message. That takes no extra time, and insures that the
>> wider audience of Texas cavers gets the message.
>>
>> Mark Minton
>>
>> At 10:42 AM 5/19/2011, Jim Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> David,
>>>
>>> You are missing the forest for the trees. There already IS something out
>>> there like you describe, and it works. It's called CaveTex. Look at it
>>> this way, you have to have email to be on Facebook. If you have email, and
>>> you are a caver, you SHOULD already be on CaveTex.
>>>
>>
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
>> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ************************
> Katherine Arens Office Phones: (512) 232-6363
> k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu Dept. Phone: (512) 471-4123
> Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
> 1 University Station C3300 Bldg.Location: Burdine 336
> University of Texas at Austin Office: Burdine 320
> Austin, TX 78712-0304
>
> -. .-
> _..-'( )`-.._
> ./'. '||\\. (\_/) .//||` .`\.
> ./'.|'.'||||\\|.. )O O( ..|//||||`.`|.`\.
> ./'..|'.|| |||||\`````` '`" '` ''''''/||||| ||.`|..`\.
> ./'.||'.|||| ||||||||||||. . |||||||||||| ||||.`||.`\.
> /'|||'.|||||| ||||||||||||{ }|||||||||||| ||||||.`|||`\
> '.|||'.||||||| ||||||||||||{ }|||||||||||| |||||||.`|||.`
> '.||| ||||||||| |/' ``\||`` ''||/'' `\| ||||||||| |||.`
> |/' \./' `\./ \!|\ /|!/ \./' `\./ `\|
> V V V }' `\ /' `{ V V V
> ` ` ` V ' ' '
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a shame there is not an online forum for caving... why is that? IMHO a
forum solves these issues that many are bickering about, without the privacy
issues.
I personally think the list-serve is very lame and an out of date method of
communication. I've canceled once, only to reluctantly came back because that
seemed like the only way to get the info. I also think trying to replace it
with Facebook is a bad idea for the many reasons mentioned.
Forums allow anonymity if desired, can be setup to forward to email all or only
interested "subscribed" threads or sub-forums, can be used to post news,
events, pictures, videos, etc. There can be private threads if needed as well.
Users may create their own threads which can be easily ignored without all the
inbox spam.
Best of all, the wealth of information provided by the contributors is
cataloged and easily searchable for future reference. There is occasionally
some really interesting stuff ya'll put out there on CaveTex, but mostly just
fills my inbox with more garbage like this email (sorry).
Take a look at http://www.cavediver.net/ if you need a good example. If it's
know-how that's needed, I can put you in touch with a local, and very
successful creator of many forums for direction.
Just my $0.02
Best of luck sorting this out ;-)
Brandon
--- On Sun, 5/22/11, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Texascavers and Facebook registration
To: "Charles Goldsmith" <wo...@justfamily.org>, "Katherine Arens"
<k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu>
Cc: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, May 22, 2011, 12:10 AM
#yiv1371535465 {font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}
Katie and Charles both made good points on this issue. I agree with Charles
that making Texascavers a member of Facebook would be likely to generate too
much unwanted traffic and drive more people away, but what if it were done with
a separate FB (Facebook) list, similar to the existing OT list, to which cavers
could subscribe if they were interested?
Regardless of whether or not this is done, I agree with Jim and others that
announcements of general interest to cavers should be copied to the main
Texascavers list even if they are posted to Facebook. The main reason for a
separate FB list would be to give the Facebook enthusiasts a convenient way to
copy messages to their caver friends who are not registered with Facebook, even
when those messages are not sufficiently "on topic" to post on Texascavers.
This might help somewhat to alleviate the split that has been growing recently
within the caving community between those who want to use Facebook and those
who do not. On one side, we have Facebook enthusiasts who are increasingly
using Facebook to communicate with their caver friends and announce caving
related events. They apparently either don't know or don't care much about the
potential privacy pitfalls of Facebook and tend to assume that anyone who
hasn't signed up for it has simply failed to do so out of ignorance about its
benefits. On the other side, we have people (like myself) who have been
resisting pressure to sign up for Facebook, because of concern about some of
Facebook's privacy related policies and practices. In some cases, people may be
reluctant to sign up strictly out of concern for their own privacy, and in
other cases, people also may be concerned about the broader long range social
implications of these policies and practices.
After all, Facebook now has significantly more users than the entire
population of the United States, so whatever it does can have major
consequences, both nationally and internationally.
Facebook hardly allows you to do anything until you "sign up", or register,
with them, and this registration procedure demands your real name, email
address, sex, and date of birth. Most troubling is the demand for your date of
birth, since giving this information in combination with your name is
technically similar to providing your social security number, in that, for most
people, it forms a unique identifier which can be used to link whatever data
Facebook has about you together with data about you in other databases. This
information, like your social security number, has significant potential for
misuse, either by identity thieves gaining unauthorized access to the data or
by corporate and/or government entities using the database in ways you never
anticipated. Consequently, it is information that should be given to a company
only on a legitimate "need to know" basis, not just to any company that thinks
it can generate more money from its database
by including your date of birth. Facebook's sign up page claims that they
require "all users to provide their real date of birth to encourage
authenticity and provide only age-appropriate access to content," but, in my
opinion, this hardly constitutes a legitimate "need to know." How does it
"encourage authenticity" when people can just as easily lie about their date of
birth as they can anything else? If they truly want the information to provide
only age-appropriate access to content, then they could just as well ask
whether your age falls within certain relevant ranges, without requiring your
precise date of birth.
A mechanism similar to what Katie suggested, but perhaps with a separate list
to overcome the problem Charles mentioned, might help to bridge the gap between
the users and the nonusers of Facebook within the caving community. Cavers
concerned about Facebook's privacy issues might prefer to use this mechanism,
just as people concerned about Google's privacy issues often prefer to use
startpage.com or startingpage.com instead of google.com for their Google
searches (something worth trying if you're not already familiar with it). I'm
not sure whether or not the suggested mechanism would actually work out, but
it's something for the cavers to consider if Charles is willing to look into it.
Rod
rod.g...@ieee.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith
Sent: May 19, 2011 11:41 AM
To: Katherine Arens
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com, Mark Minton
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA-ANL, Facebook, and caving
Katie, it COULD, but I won't do it, I'm sorry, facebook just doesn't have
any proper filters in place, and it would just spam the list, driving more
people away.
Nice idea though.
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Katherine Arens
wrote:
> Radical suggestion: could "texascavers@texascavers.com" become a member
> of facebook? If so, then what "it" posts could be forwarded to the list . .
> .
> katie
>
>
> Elegantly stated, Jim. I think David must spend more time on
>> Facebook than most anyone I know, and I doubt he is representative of cavers
>> in general. If people insist on using Facebook or any other social medium
>> for caving announcements, at the very least they should cc Texascavers
>> (CaveTex) with the message. That takes no extra time, and insures that the
>> wider audience of Texas cavers gets the message.
>>
>> Mark Minton
>>
>> At 10:42 AM 5/19/2011, Jim Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> David,
>>>
>>> You are missing the forest for the trees. There already IS something out
>>> there like you describe, and it works. It's called CaveTex. Look at it
>>> this way, you have to have email to be on Facebook. If you have email, and
>>> you are a caver, you SHOULD already be on CaveTex.
>>>
>>
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
>> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ************************
> Katherine Arens Office Phones: (512) 232-6363
> k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu Dept. Phone: (512) 471-4123
> Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
> 1 University Station C3300 Bldg.Location: Burdine 336
> University of Texas at Austin Office: Burdine 320
> Austin, TX 78712-0304
>
> -. .-
> _..-'( )`-.._
> ./'. '||\\. (\_/) .//||` .`\.
> ./'.|'.'||||\\|.. )O O( ..|//||||`.`|.`\.
> ./'..|'.|| |||||\`````` '`" '` ''''''/||||| ||.`|..`\.
> ./'.||'.|||| ||||||||||||. . |||||||||||| ||||.`||.`\.
> /'|||'.|||||| ||||||||||||{ }|||||||||||| ||||||.`|||`\
> '.|||'.||||||| ||||||||||||{ }|||||||||||| |||||||.`|||.`
> '.||| ||||||||| |/' ``\||`` ''||/'' `\| ||||||||| |||.`
> |/' \./' `\./ \!|\ /|!/ \./' `\./ `\|
> V V V }' `\ /' `{ V V V
> ` ` ` V ' ' '
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am an admin for several Facebook groups. I find their arbitrary changes in formatting and utility to be a real pain in the ouiseau. I only do it because USENET became full of trolls, psychopaths, and spammers.
Trust me, change is not necessarily a improvement. Any of you who are forced to use LOTUS NOTES at work or in academia will understand this immediately.
Don't do it.
R
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Re: A warning from the future
In retrospect I realize it was all a big mistake. I send down one of my ten
billion only begotten sons only this particular one is a paranoid with a
big mouth and everybody takes him seriously. His delusions of grandeur
resonate with ignorant desert tribesmen whose idea of fun is to fight over
camels. Then, about sixty years later after everybody has forgotten exactly
what
he says they collect the stories and they become a best seller. Shortly
thereafter Roman priests and pederasts get involved, then another desert
dwelling lunatic named Mo comes up with a different version that is almost
exactly the same but worse.
I did everything I could to dissuade people from believing this gibberish.
I sent war, plague, and famine to everybody who bought the bull but it only
reinforced their faith. It occurred to me to hide the original set of evil
fairy tales so I sent a little shepherd boy to collect the scattered texts
and hide them in a cave. That worked fairly well until cavers came along.
Who could have imagined that in the late twentieth and early twenty first
centuries people would be so bored they would have nothing better to do than
to crawl into holes in the ground?
So it came to pass that not too long ago a Bedouin caver discovered some of
the hidden scrolls not far from the aptly named Dead sea in the accursed
land of Yidzrael. The rotting fragments made no sense, and that should have
put the matter to rest, but nooooo! Ask yourself, has peace come to the
middle east?
So I have finally had it. There are other yet undiscovered scrolls
awaiting discovery and misinterpretation and I simply will not allow it.
Henceforth all caving is banned along with all direct discussion thereof. No
more
trip reports, only off topic apocrypha will be allowed. As to cavers
themselves I condemn them to old age and death. The use of electronic media is
part of my plan. No more scrolls in caves that might be found later, just
pointless babbling that will disappear from earth once the lights go out. As
you
have been repeatedly warned, that day is coming soon!
God
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why reinvent the wheel?
www.forums.caves.org/
--- On Sun, 5/22/11, Brandon Cook <brandonscottc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Brandon Cook <brandonscottc...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Texascavers and Facebook registration
To:
Cc: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, May 22, 2011, 1:09 AM
It's a shame there is not an online forum for caving... why is that? IMHO a
forum solves these issues that many are bickering about, without the privacy
issues.
I personally think the list-serve is very lame and an out of date method of
communication. I've canceled once, only to reluctantly came back because that
seemed like the only way to get the info. I also think trying to replace it
with Facebook is a bad idea for the many reasons mentioned.
Forums allow anonymity if desired, can be setup to forward to email all or only
interested "subscribed" threads or sub-forums, can be used to post news,
events, pictures, videos, etc. There can be private threads if needed as well.
Users may create their own threads which can be easily ignored without all the
inbox spam.
Best of all, the wealth of information provided by the contributors is
cataloged and easily searchable for future reference. There is occasionally
some really interesting stuff ya'll put out there on CaveTex, but mostly just
fills my inbox with more garbage like this email (sorry).
Take a look at http://www.cavediver.net/ if you need a good example. If it's
know-how that's needed, I can put you in touch with a local, and very
successful creator of many forums for direction.
Just my $0.02
Best of luck sorting this out ;-)
Brandon
--- On Sun, 5/22/11, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Texascavers and Facebook registration
To: "Charles Goldsmith" <wo...@justfamily.org>, "Katherine Arens"
<k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu>
Cc: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, May 22, 2011, 12:10 AM
#yiv1698555241 {font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}
Katie and Charles both made good points on this issue. I agree with Charles
that making Texascavers a member of Facebook would be likely to generate too
much unwanted traffic and drive more people away, but what if it were done with
a separate FB (Facebook) list, similar to the existing OT list, to which cavers
could subscribe if they were interested?
Regardless of whether or not this is done, I agree with Jim and others that
announcements of general interest to cavers should be copied to the main
Texascavers list even if they are posted to Facebook. The main reason for a
separate FB list would be to give the Facebook enthusiasts a
convenient way to copy messages to their caver friends who are not registered
with Facebook, even when those messages are not sufficiently "on topic" to post
on Texascavers.
This might help somewhat to alleviate the split that has been growing recently
within the caving community between those who want to use Facebook and those
who do not. On one side, we have Facebook enthusiasts who are increasingly
using Facebook to communicate with their caver friends and announce caving
related events. They apparently either don't know or don't care much about the
potential privacy pitfalls of Facebook and tend to assume that anyone who
hasn't signed up for it has simply failed to do so out of ignorance about its
benefits. On the other side, we have people (like myself) who have been
resisting pressure to sign up for Facebook, because of concern about some of
Facebook's privacy related policies and practices. In some cases, people may be
reluctant to
sign up strictly out of concern for their own privacy, and in other cases,
people also may be concerned about the broader long range social implications
of these policies and practices. After all, Facebook now has significantly more
users than the entire population of the United States, so whatever it does can
have major consequences, both nationally and internationally.
Facebook hardly allows you to do anything until you "sign up", or register,
with them, and this registration procedure demands your real name, email
address, sex, and date of birth. Most troubling is the demand for your date of
birth, since giving this information in combination with your name is
technically similar to providing your social security number, in that, for most
people, it forms a unique identifier which can be used to link whatever data
Facebook has about you together with data about you in other databases. This
information, like your social security number, has
significant potential for misuse, either by identity thieves gaining
unauthorized access to the data or by corporate and/or government entities
using the database in ways you never anticipated. Consequently, it is
information that should be given to a company only on a legitimate "need to
know" basis, not just to any company that thinks it can generate more money
from its database by including your date of birth. Facebook's sign up page
claims that they require "all users to provide their real date of birth to
encourage authenticity and provide only age-appropriate access to content,"
but, in my opinion, this hardly constitutes a legitimate "need to know." How
does it "encourage authenticity" when people can just as easily lie about their
date of birth as they can anything else? If they truly want the information to
provide only age-appropriate access to content, then they could just as well
ask whether your age falls within certain relevant ranges,
without requiring your precise date of birth.
A mechanism similar to what Katie suggested, but perhaps with a separate list
to overcome the problem Charles mentioned, might help to bridge the gap between
the users and the nonusers of Facebook within the caving community. Cavers
concerned about Facebook's privacy issues might prefer to use this mechanism,
just as people concerned about Google's privacy issues often prefer to use
startpage.com or startingpage.com instead of google.com for their Google
searches (something worth trying if you're not already familiar with it). I'm
not sure whether or not the suggested mechanism would actually work out, but
it's something for the cavers to consider if Charles is willing to look into it.
Rod
rod.g...@ieee.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith
Sent: May 19, 2011 11:41 AM
To: Katherine Arens
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com, Mark
Minton
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA-ANL, Facebook, and caving
Katie, it COULD, but I won't do it, I'm sorry, facebook just doesn't have
any proper filters in place, and it would just spam the list, driving more
people away.
Nice idea though.
On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Katherine Arens
wrote:
> Radical suggestion: could "texascavers@texascavers.com" become a member
> of facebook? If so, then what "it" posts could be forwarded to the list . .
> .
> katie
>
>
> Elegantly stated, Jim. I think David must spend more time on
>> Facebook than most anyone I know, and I doubt he is representative of cavers
>> in general. If people insist on using Facebook or any other social medium
>> for caving announcements, at the very least they should cc Texascavers
>> (CaveTex) with the message. That takes no extra time, and insures that
the
>> wider audience of Texas cavers gets the message.
>>
>> Mark Minton
>>
>> At 10:42 AM 5/19/2011, Jim Kennedy wrote:
>>
>> David,
>>>
>>> You are missing the forest for the trees. There already IS something out
>>> there like you describe, and it works. It's called CaveTex. Look at it
>>> this way, you have to have email to be on Facebook. If you have email, and
>>> you are a caver, you SHOULD already be on CaveTex.
>>>
>>
>> Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
>> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ************************
> Katherine Arens Office Phones: (512) 232-6363
> k.ar...@mail.utexas.edu Dept. Phone: (512) 471-4123
> Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
> 1 University Station C3300 Bldg.Location: Burdine 336
> University of Texas at Austin Office: Burdine 320
> Austin, TX 78712-0304
>
> -. .-
> _..-'( )`-.._
> ./'. '||\\. (\_/) .//||` .`\.
> ./'.|'.'||||\\|.. )O O( ..|//||||`.`|.`\.
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