texascavers Digest 16 Dec 2009 01:55:47 -0000 Issue 919
Topics (messages 13005 through 13015):
Re: NSS members in Austin
13005 by: Terry Holsinger
13006 by: ellie :)
13008 by: Gill Edigar
13009 by: Charles Goldsmith
13010 by: Jim Kennedy
13011 by: Alex Sproul
Re: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
13007 by: Charles Goldsmith
Officer's powers
13012 by: Gill Edigar
13013 by: Charles Goldsmith
Re: Clean Water Action
13014 by: Don Cooper
13015 by: Robert B
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--- Begin Message ---
Maybe someone on the TSA's Membership committee should write to the non
members in the NSS and invite them to join or let us know why they are
not interested. Is that not what the TSA has a memberships committee for?
Terry H.
Gill Edigar wrote:
Mixon--
Philosophically speaking: Did you check to see how many of those 488
Texas NSS members were among the fewer than 200 TSA members? Did you
wonder why or why not? How many do you think would subscribe to a free
digital TEXAS CAVER? And then be willing to join TSA afterwards? Maybe a
hundred, huh? Might be worth trying even if they just got 50, huh? Would
that be good for The CAVER? Would that be good for the TSA? Would that
be good for Texas caving? Would that be good for me or you?
--Ediger
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com
<mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com>> wrote:
The annual NSS membership list has just been distributed (about five
months late). There are interesting statistics about NSS membership
on pages 65-67, worth calling to your attention, because I suspect
most members never look at the miscellaneous stuff in the front of
the book. Among other things, 787xx (Austin) is in the top ten
three-digit ZIPs in NSS membership, with 92 NSS members. Top in the
list is 300xx, with 220. That would be Atlanta and vicinity. (300
seems to cover a lot of suburbs of Atlanta, whereas all the 787
addresses are actually Austin.) Eight-five NSS members have listed
the UT Grotto as their "primary affiliation.". This is for purposes
of allocating votes in the Congress of Grottos at NSS conventions,
although so far as I know the UTG has never participated in living
memory. There are twelve NSS groups with more NSS members than UTG
(the Cave Diving Section has 1,022!), but many of them require NSS
membership of their members. The lowest NSS number of a Texas NSS
member is 509. Texas is among the top ten states, with 488 NSS members.
This year's membership list is sorted by states, which makes it
relatively easy for a group to see who in its area might need to be
contacted with information about the club. One thing I was struck by
when looking through Texas is the number of names with 787xx that I
don't recognize. Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't recognize
the faces; there is unfortunately little opportunity to learn
peoples' names at meetings of fifty or events of four hundred. I'm
bad about remembering names, too. Name tags seem Mickey Mouse, but....
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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--- Begin Message ---
The TSA Chair second, third, and forthed Charles Goldsmiths motion to "to
table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be
discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where
registered members present can vote for a majority."
It will not be decided on till then. You can continue and continue and
continue to make unfounded, pious rants and raves and bitch and cry but NO
decision will be made until the January 10th TSA winter meeting.
At the meeting we will discuss two-tier memberships, free membership
options, and scholarships but again, NO decision will be made until the
January 10th TSA winter meeting. None. Nada.
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Terry Holsinger <tr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> Maybe someone on the TSA's Membership committee should write to the non
> members in the NSS and invite them to join or let us know why they are not
> interested. Is that not what the TSA has a memberships committee for?
>
> Terry H.
>
> Gill Edigar wrote:
>
>> Mixon--
>> Philosophically speaking: Did you check to see how many of those 488 Texas
>> NSS members were among the fewer than 200 TSA members? Did you wonder why or
>> why not? How many do you think would subscribe to a free digital TEXAS
>> CAVER? And then be willing to join TSA afterwards? Maybe a hundred, huh?
>> Might be worth trying even if they just got 50, huh? Would that be good for
>> The CAVER? Would that be good for the TSA? Would that be good for Texas
>> caving? Would that be good for me or you? --Ediger
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com<mailto:
>> bmixon...@austin.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> The annual NSS membership list has just been distributed (about five
>> months late). There are interesting statistics about NSS membership
>> on pages 65-67, worth calling to your attention, because I suspect
>> most members never look at the miscellaneous stuff in the front of
>> the book. Among other things, 787xx (Austin) is in the top ten
>> three-digit ZIPs in NSS membership, with 92 NSS members. Top in the
>> list is 300xx, with 220. That would be Atlanta and vicinity. (300
>> seems to cover a lot of suburbs of Atlanta, whereas all the 787
>> addresses are actually Austin.) Eight-five NSS members have listed
>> the UT Grotto as their "primary affiliation.". This is for purposes
>> of allocating votes in the Congress of Grottos at NSS conventions,
>> although so far as I know the UTG has never participated in living
>> memory. There are twelve NSS groups with more NSS members than UTG
>> (the Cave Diving Section has 1,022!), but many of them require NSS
>> membership of their members. The lowest NSS number of a Texas NSS
>> member is 509. Texas is among the top ten states, with 488 NSS members.
>>
>> This year's membership list is sorted by states, which makes it
>> relatively easy for a group to see who in its area might need to be
>> contacted with information about the club. One thing I was struck by
>> when looking through Texas is the number of names with 787xx that I
>> don't recognize. Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't recognize
>> the faces; there is unfortunately little opportunity to learn
>> peoples' names at meetings of fifty or events of four hundred. I'm
>> bad about remembering names, too. Name tags seem Mickey Mouse, but....
>> --Mixon
>> ----------------------------------------
>> May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
>> ----------------------------------------
>> You may "reply" to the address this message
>> came from, but for long-term use, save:
>> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu <mailto:
>> bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu>
>> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:edi...@amcs-pubs.org> or
>> sa...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:sa...@amcs-pubs.org>
>>
>>
>>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or, maybe the TSA could do something really unique and progressive like
sending free digital issues of The TEXAS CAVER to those NSS members not
already subscribed--no membership committee, no procrastination, no hassles.
See how many of them pick up the ball and join the TSA. Then those people
would know something about the TSA, would be getting a free and valuable
service from the TSA (perhaps for the first time in their caving careers),
and just might figure that what they are getting could be worth joining the
TSA for. Everybody wins. FREE. Nobody looses anything. Also FREE.
--Ediger
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Terry Holsinger <tr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> Maybe someone on the TSA's Membership committee should write to the non
> members in the NSS and invite them to join or let us know why they are not
> interested. Is that not what the TSA has a memberships committee for?
>
> Terry H.
>
> Gill Edigar wrote:
>
>> Mixon--
>> Philosophically speaking: Did you check to see how many of those 488 Texas
>> NSS members were among the fewer than 200 TSA members? Did you wonder why or
>> why not? How many do you think would subscribe to a free digital TEXAS
>> CAVER? And then be willing to join TSA afterwards? Maybe a hundred, huh?
>> Might be worth trying even if they just got 50, huh? Would that be good for
>> The CAVER? Would that be good for the TSA? Would that be good for Texas
>> caving? Would that be good for me or you? --Ediger
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com<mailto:
>> bmixon...@austin.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> The annual NSS membership list has just been distributed (about five
>> months late). There are interesting statistics about NSS membership
>> on pages 65-67, worth calling to your attention, because I suspect
>> most members never look at the miscellaneous stuff in the front of
>> the book. Among other things, 787xx (Austin) is in the top ten
>> three-digit ZIPs in NSS membership, with 92 NSS members. Top in the
>> list is 300xx, with 220. That would be Atlanta and vicinity. (300
>> seems to cover a lot of suburbs of Atlanta, whereas all the 787
>> addresses are actually Austin.) Eight-five NSS members have listed
>> the UT Grotto as their "primary affiliation.". This is for purposes
>> of allocating votes in the Congress of Grottos at NSS conventions,
>> although so far as I know the UTG has never participated in living
>> memory. There are twelve NSS groups with more NSS members than UTG
>> (the Cave Diving Section has 1,022!), but many of them require NSS
>> membership of their members. The lowest NSS number of a Texas NSS
>> member is 509. Texas is among the top ten states, with 488 NSS members.
>>
>> This year's membership list is sorted by states, which makes it
>> relatively easy for a group to see who in its area might need to be
>> contacted with information about the club. One thing I was struck by
>> when looking through Texas is the number of names with 787xx that I
>> don't recognize. Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't recognize
>> the faces; there is unfortunately little opportunity to learn
>> peoples' names at meetings of fifty or events of four hundred. I'm
>> bad about remembering names, too. Name tags seem Mickey Mouse, but....
>> --Mixon
>> ----------------------------------------
>> May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
>> ----------------------------------------
>> You may "reply" to the address this message
>> came from, but for long-term use, save:
>> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu <mailto:
>> bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu>
>> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:edi...@amcs-pubs.org> or
>> sa...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:sa...@amcs-pubs.org>
>>
>>
>>
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--- Begin Message ---
I get the feeling that Ellie doesn't want to discuss this anymore.
I think it should be discussed at the Winter meeting. If you aren't a
current member, come to the meeting, sign up and voice your opinion :)
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:44 PM, ellie :) <ellie.tho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The TSA Chair second, third, and forthed Charles Goldsmiths motion to "to
> table this discussion and refer it to the Free Texas Caver committee to be
> discussed at the January 10th TSA meeting where
> registered members present can vote for a majority."
>
> It will not be decided on till then. You can continue and continue and
> continue to make unfounded, pious rants and raves and bitch and cry but NO
> decision will be made until the January 10th TSA winter meeting.
>
> At the meeting we will discuss two-tier memberships, free membership
> options, and scholarships but again, NO decision will be made until the
> January 10th TSA winter meeting. None. Nada.
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Terry Holsinger <tr...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe someone on the TSA's Membership committee should write to the non
>> members in the NSS and invite them to join or let us know why they are not
>> interested. Is that not what the TSA has a memberships committee for?
>>
>> Terry H.
>>
>> Gill Edigar wrote:
>>>
>>> Mixon--
>>> Philosophically speaking: Did you check to see how many of those 488
>>> Texas NSS members were among the fewer than 200 TSA members? Did you wonder
>>> why or why not? How many do you think would subscribe to a free digital
>>> TEXAS CAVER? And then be willing to join TSA afterwards? Maybe a hundred,
>>> huh? Might be worth trying even if they just got 50, huh? Would that be good
>>> for The CAVER? Would that be good for the TSA? Would that be good for Texas
>>> caving? Would that be good for me or you? --Ediger
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com
>>> <mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The annual NSS membership list has just been distributed (about five
>>> months late). There are interesting statistics about NSS membership
>>> on pages 65-67, worth calling to your attention, because I suspect
>>> most members never look at the miscellaneous stuff in the front of
>>> the book. Among other things, 787xx (Austin) is in the top ten
>>> three-digit ZIPs in NSS membership, with 92 NSS members. Top in the
>>> list is 300xx, with 220. That would be Atlanta and vicinity. (300
>>> seems to cover a lot of suburbs of Atlanta, whereas all the 787
>>> addresses are actually Austin.) Eight-five NSS members have listed
>>> the UT Grotto as their "primary affiliation.". This is for purposes
>>> of allocating votes in the Congress of Grottos at NSS conventions,
>>> although so far as I know the UTG has never participated in living
>>> memory. There are twelve NSS groups with more NSS members than UTG
>>> (the Cave Diving Section has 1,022!), but many of them require NSS
>>> membership of their members. The lowest NSS number of a Texas NSS
>>> member is 509. Texas is among the top ten states, with 488 NSS
>>> members.
>>>
>>> This year's membership list is sorted by states, which makes it
>>> relatively easy for a group to see who in its area might need to be
>>> contacted with information about the club. One thing I was struck by
>>> when looking through Texas is the number of names with 787xx that I
>>> don't recognize. Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't recognize
>>> the faces; there is unfortunately little opportunity to learn
>>> peoples' names at meetings of fifty or events of four hundred. I'm
>>> bad about remembering names, too. Name tags seem Mickey Mouse, but....
>>> --Mixon
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> You may "reply" to the address this message
>>> came from, but for long-term use, save:
>>> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
>>> <mailto:bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu>
>>> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:edi...@amcs-pubs.org> or
>>> sa...@amcs-pubs.org <mailto:sa...@amcs-pubs.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neither do the rest of us!
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:11 PM
To: ellie :)
Cc: Terry Holsinger; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] NSS members in Austin
I get the feeling that Ellie doesn't want to discuss this anymore.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mixon said:
>The annual NSS membership list has just been distributed (about five
>months late).
Au contrere, Bill; it's right on time.
The BOG got annoyed that the current year's MM always had last year's officers and
directors in it, so it decreed that the MM henceforth be published after the convention, so that
the newest incumbants would be included.
Unfortunately, nobody thought to tell the MM editor, who was 99% finished with publishing it
on time. She was well pissed to discover she had to start all over, not just to include the new
officers/directors, but at Square One with the member listing in order to capture new
members between June and November. It's a miracle we still have an editor.
Alex
--
Alex Sproul
NSS 8086RL/FE
NSS Webmaster
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod, that wasn't a personal attack, if you took it as such, you need
to re-read my message and think about how it was meant.
The TSA having this list is no different than the NSS keeping a list
of its members, and sending that list out in book format, plain and
simple.
Harvesting emails from a mailing list is very very simple, I have the
complete list as owner of the list, but even another list, I can
harvest with a simple script that would only take me a few minutes to
write.
It was a tongue in cheek comment about writing down email addresses by
hand. Scammers/Spammers/Phishers don't do anything manually.
Modern email applications cache email addresses that it sees, Malware
can and does use these lists to send out spam. We've seen it recently
on the mailing list.
Your email address is not safe anywhere, you will just have to learn
to face that fact in this modern age.
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Charles,
>
> Your message below really misses the the point, and your personal attacks are
> totally unwarranted. Of course, we all run some risk that our email addresses
> will somehow get to spammers whenever we send them to anyone. Whenever you or
> I or anyone else posts a message to Texascavers we understand that our email
> addresses will be visible to others on the list, and we choose to do that.
> Harvesting email addresses one at a time from postings to this list as you
> suggested would be possible, of course, but it would be a slow and
> inconvenient way to collect a large list for spam, and I don't think either
> of us is seriously worried about that.
>
> The primary hazard is not that anyone in TSA or other caving organizations
> will deliberately pass information to spammers, but rather that some people
> downloading information with good intentions will inadvertently store it
> where spyware or other malware on an infected computer can search the
> downloaded files for email addresses, phone numbers, or other information
> that writers of the malware wish to harvest. This is something that easily
> can happen, and when it does, the person making information available to the
> malware might be totally unaware of what is going on. When people download
> individual email messages or other data items containing only a few email
> addresses or other sensitive items, then only those few items are vulnerable
> to harvesting by malware in any one incident. When people download an entire
> mailing list, however, then just one incident on one inadvertently infected
> computer can result in harvesting of the entire list. When many people
> download the list to many different computers, the risk to everyone on the
> list increases accordingly.
>
> So far as I know, the subscribers to Texascavers are not allowed to download
> that entire email address list, and I trust that Texascavers will continue to
> be managed in this responsible manner, especially since I haven't noticed any
> demand to do otherwise. The discussions I've heard and read about the TSA's
> online data resources, however, create much more uncertainty about how they
> will be managed. This is why it is important to have serious discussions of
> the issues beforehand to prevent problems, especially when some of them could
> be prevented so easily with a few minor policy decisions.
>
> Rod
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>
>>Sent: Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM
>>To: Rod Goke <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>Cc: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>, John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>,
>>Mark Alman <mark.al...@l-3com.com>, TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>
>>Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over 360
>>people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could
>>harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of who
>>posted an email to this list.
>>
>>Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that
>>one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA"
>>people, who are duly elected by some of these people.
>>
>>If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it
>>will be available on the front page.
>>
>>Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad
>>press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA.
>>
>>Charles
>>
>>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA
>>> membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think
>>> that Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the
>>> dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I
>>> blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the
>>> filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they
>>> don't even have my email address? ;-) )
>>>
>>> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle our
>>> email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA already
>>> has placed an online listing of its electronically registered members on
>>> its password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent proposal to make
>>> online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers. Neither of these
>>> things necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA members' email
>>> addresses when considered separately (although I still would rather not
>>> have my email address on even a members-only password protected online
>>> list). When both of these things are considered together, however, along
>>> with all the other turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it is
>>> easy to imagine how people might provide their email addresses to TSA
>>> assuming one seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover later
>>> that TSA has changed its mind and has made the email address list more
>>> widely accessible than people had expected when they provided their
>>> addresses.
>>>
>>> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted
>>> people to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just telling
>>> us "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA simply
>>> would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address will
>>> be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in" for
>>> inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for website
>>> access without having their email addresses published in an online list.
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
>>>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM
>>>>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>
>>>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just
>>>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails.
>>>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers who
>>>>are very much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>>Bill
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net>
>>>>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers"
>>>><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail
>>>>> messages per WEEK.
>>>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the TSA
>>>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly seems
>>>>> fair or reasonable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Rod,
>>>>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to 3
>>>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam
>>>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me figure
>>>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of
>>>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng the
>>>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel that
>>>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you can
>>>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot of
>>>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried in
>>>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China...
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
>>>>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM
>>>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas Caver
>>>>> reminds me of a related issue:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA?
>>>>>
>>>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the membership
>>>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this
>>>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along with
>>>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in
>>>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email
>>>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The
>>>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper form,
>>>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to be
>>>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for years,
>>>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of digital
>>>>> publication without adequately considering the negative consequences of
>>>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've heard
>>>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information
>>>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be cheap
>>>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it
>>>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to automated
>>>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once our
>>>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a
>>>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way to
>>>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push towards
>>>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital
>>>>> publication of email addresses
>>>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rod
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An observation--
Officers are elected to run the day-to-day operations of companies,
organizations, governments, and other such groups of people in lieu of
having a council or committee mico-managing the trivial details. They are
expected to make certain decisions on behalf of the organization without
consulting the entire membership or executive council or board of governors.
For instance, they would be expected to go buy a roll of tape or box of
staples if they were needed for the conduct of business. Likewise, if a
special mailing were required for a safety alert or an election they could
conceivably be expected to spend $100 on postage stamps to see the mailing
got to the members--without asking anybody. That is their job. Along that
same train of thought, I would suggest that if the Chairman and newsletter
editor decided to send out free digital copies as advertising to prospective
new members of the various college clubs they would have it completely
within their powers to do so--and be praised for their aggressiveness--and
need to ask no one's permission. Indeed, there is a long and respected
history of the TSA doing just that. No board action would be necessary--or
even expected, for that matter. Especially if no expenditures were
required.
Now then, I'm not a TSA member so I would never presume to tell the TSA how
to conduct its business. I'm merely speaking as an independent Texas caver
bystander and interested observer. So, I have been both TSA Chairman and
TEXAS CAVER editor on more than one occasion over the years. I would presume
that most Texas cavers would suspect that I have a bit of experience with
officer power and responsibilities and how they can get things
constitutionally accomplished. Believe me, creativity can be a valuable tool
in the running of a volunteer organization. Both Davy Crockett and Sam
Houston used to proclaim, "Be sure you're right and then go ahead." No
officer will ever be chastised by the membership for handing out free
advertising supporting the aims and goals of the organization and
encouraging membership. It is the right thing to do. And no other current
advertising brochure will fulfill that function better than a free digital
copy of The TEXAS CAVER sent (or made available) to all non-TSA-member NSS
cavers in Texas. So now, they can go ahead. No board action is required. It
is an officer responsibility. I'm looking forward to seeing old Sam and Davy
crack a smile over this one.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Said Gill
Charles
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Gill Edigar <gi...@att.net> wrote:
> An observation--
> Officers are elected to run the day-to-day operations of companies,
> organizations, governments, and other such groups of people in lieu of
> having a council or committee mico-managing the trivial details. They are
> expected to make certain decisions on behalf of the organization without
> consulting the entire membership or executive council or board of governors.
> For instance, they would be expected to go buy a roll of tape or box of
> staples if they were needed for the conduct of business. Likewise, if a
> special mailing were required for a safety alert or an election they could
> conceivably be expected to spend $100 on postage stamps to see the mailing
> got to the members--without asking anybody. That is their job. Along that
> same train of thought, I would suggest that if the Chairman and newsletter
> editor decided to send out free digital copies as advertising to prospective
> new members of the various college clubs they would have it completely
> within their powers to do so--and be praised for their aggressiveness--and
> need to ask no one's permission. Indeed, there is a long and respected
> history of the TSA doing just that. No board action would be necessary--or
> even expected, for that matter. Especially if no expenditures were
> required.
> Now then, I'm not a TSA member so I would never presume to tell the TSA how
> to conduct its business. I'm merely speaking as an independent Texas caver
> bystander and interested observer. So, I have been both TSA Chairman and
> TEXAS CAVER editor on more than one occasion over the years. I would presume
> that most Texas cavers would suspect that I have a bit of experience with
> officer power and responsibilities and how they can get things
> constitutionally accomplished. Believe me, creativity can be a valuable tool
> in the running of a volunteer organization. Both Davy Crockett and Sam
> Houston used to proclaim, "Be sure you're right and then go ahead." No
> officer will ever be chastised by the membership for handing out free
> advertising supporting the aims and goals of the organization and
> encouraging membership. It is the right thing to do. And no other current
> advertising brochure will fulfill that function better than a free digital
> copy of The TEXAS CAVER sent (or made available) to all non-TSA-member NSS
> cavers in Texas. So now, they can go ahead. No board action is required. It
> is an officer responsibility. I'm looking forward to seeing old Sam and Davy
> crack a smile over this one.
> --Ediger
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something worth considering when taking it all into account:
It takes a LOT of water to "scrub" coal-fired plant stack columns.
A whole lot of water that becomes horribly contaminated with all the shit
that WOULD have gone into the air.
Then you're left with a clean air power plant with millions of gallons of
contaminated water.
Whatya gonna have - clean air or clean water???
So. Yeah - there's a LOTTA coal out there. Only there's just so much clean
air / water....
-WaV
On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a
> viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin:
> http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
> The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to
> door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.
>
> Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues,
> the issues on their website include:
> "The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts
> in Central Texas",
> "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"
> "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City
> Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
> "Increase Funding for State Parks"
> "Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"
> "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"
>
> Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not
> tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of
> duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many
> of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue,
> and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.
>
> Logan
>
> ------------------------------
> George Veni wrote:
>
> *Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas
> since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and
> agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water
> degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if
> the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted
> to other projects in other areas. *
>
> *George *
>
> **
> ------------------------------
> **
>
> *From:* bgillegi...@gmail.com
> [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com<bgillegi...@gmail.com>]
> *On Behalf Of *Gill Edigar
> *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
>
> RE: Clean Water Action
>
> A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
> 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of
> and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
> water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
> world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks
> from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to
> keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave
> them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data
> card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good
> slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
> nebulous details.
>
> Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
> SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some
> of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good
> work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've
> never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what
> they really do.
> --Ediger
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail:
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, dirty coal. Always reminds me of Dick van Dyke in "Mary Poppins'
scrubbin the chimneys. Or better yet, Jack Wild as the 'Artful Dodger' all
covered in soot. A perfect marlboro commercial or the next poster child for
the 'Nuke is Cleaner than Coal' lobby.
To save water we could climb the stacks a 'PEE' into the emmisions.
effectively creating our own SCR, Selective Catalytic Reduction. 4NO + 2(NH2
)2CO + O2 → 4N2 + 4H2O + 2CO2.
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Don Cooper <wavyca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Something worth considering when taking it all into account:
>
> It takes a LOT of water to "scrub" coal-fired plant stack columns.
> A whole lot of water that becomes horribly contaminated with all the shit
> that WOULD have gone into the air.
> Then you're left with a clean air power plant with millions of gallons of
> contaminated water.
>
> Whatya gonna have - clean air or clean water???
>
> So. Yeah - there's a LOTTA coal out there. Only there's just so much
> clean air / water....
>
> -WaV
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com>wrote:
>
>> I've been donating to Clean Water Action since 2000, and they are still a
>> viable national organization with a Texas chapter based in Austin:
>> http://www.cleanwateraction.org/tx
>> The first thing that impressed me was they still have people going door to
>> door once a year, at least in south Austin where Gill and I live.
>>
>> Although Annalisa of GEAA said CWA does not get involved in local issues,
>> the issues on their website include:
>> "The Coming Crisis: Water Availability and Municipal Conservation Efforts
>> in Central Texas",
>> "Tell the Austin City Council To Support Clean Energy"
>> "Tell San Anonio's [and New Braunfels', and Georgetown's] Mayor and City
>> Council Not To Support Nuclear Energy"
>> "Increase Funding for State Parks"
>> "Get The Mercury Out Of Our Skies And Water"
>> "Support A Moratorium On New Permits For Coal-Burning Power Plants"
>>
>> Obviously they are an advocacy/lobbying group, so donations are not
>> tax-deductible. I agree with Stephan that it seems like there is a lot of
>> duplication of effort among the plethora of environmental groups, but many
>> of the smaller groups are devoted to a specific geographic area or issue,
>> and cannot actively lobby, unlike CWA.
>>
>> Logan
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> George Veni wrote:
>>
>> *Clean Water Action has been working in the Austin and San Antonio areas
>> since at least the mid-1980s. They have worked to lobby government and
>> agencies, and work cooperatively with other green groups to prevent water
>> degradation. I haven’t seen them much in the past 10 years and don’t know if
>> the organization crashed and is now recovering or if it simply got diverted
>> to other projects in other areas. *
>>
>> *George *
>>
>> **
>> ------------------------------
>> **
>>
>> *From:* bgillegi...@gmail.com
>> [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com<bgillegi...@gmail.com>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Gill Edigar
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2009 12:39 PM
>> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
>> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Change of Subject--Clean Water
>>
>> RE: Clean Water Action
>>
>> A few months ago a fellow came by the house representing an outfit called
>> 'Clean Water Action' ostensibly soliciting funds to promote awareness of
>> and promoting lobbying for clean water in some form or fashion. Since clean
>> water is a current topic of interest in South Austin and other parts of the
>> world it would be a good thing to hype if one wanted to make a few bucks
>> from folks with good environmental intentions but who haven't the time to
>> keep up with every environmental interest group that comes along. I gave
>> them a few bucks and signed their petition and filled out a personal data
>> card. A few days ago I got a phone call from them asking for a pretty good
>> slug of money. I asked for more information. A letter followed but with
>> nebulous details.
>>
>> Does anybody have any knowledge of these guys? Where do they fit in with
>> SOS, the City of Austin, the various water conservation districts that some
>> of our cavers work at? Can anybody cite me any references of their good
>> work? Etc, etc? If they're on the up-and-up I want to support them, but I've
>> never heard of them before and want a better idea of who they are and what
>> they really do.
>> --Ediger
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail:
>> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
