texascavers Digest 18 Dec 2009 21:11:26 -0000 Issue 928
Topics (messages 13101 through 13112):
More Detail on the Sloans Valley Cave Death
13101 by: Preston Forsythe
Re: archiving your cave data
13102 by: Glen Goldsmith
13106 by: John Greer
13107 by: Clover Clamons
13109 by: Louise Power
13111 by: Glen Goldsmith
13112 by: John P Brooks
Re: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
13103 by: caverarch.aol.com
13104 by: Geary Schindel
life of CD-R
13105 by: Mixon Bill
Re: Can plumbers be trusted with cell phones?
13108 by: Diana Tomchick
13110 by: caverarch.aol.com
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Three young men entered the Garbage Pit entrance to Sloans Valley Cave,
Pulaski County, south eastern KY. Each had one flashlight. They did not have
helmets or gloves. They were wearing tennis shoes. The party proceeded about
1000 ft. into the cave. At that point the victim attempted a difficult
climb. It is speculated that he fell while holding the flashlight in one
hand. The deceased probably fell head first. The rescue unit from Somerset,
KY responded plus one rescuer, a caver, came from the Monticello rescue
unit.
Again, our condolences to the family and friends.
Preston in Browder, western KY
-----------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Preston Forsythe" <pns_...@bellsouth.net>
To: "Cave Tex" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:56 PM
Subject: KY Cave Death
Today a young man died in Sloan Valley Cave in eastern KY. Slipped and
fell down a 30 ft. pit. Some eastern KY NSS members helped in the body
recovery.
Our condolences to the family and friends of the young man.
http://www.kentucky.com/513/story/1062953.html?mi_pluck_action=comment_submitted&qwxq=4548842#Comments_Container
Preston in western KY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Expected_lifespan
In short, Mixon is right - you'll have to copy the contents of a CD-R/DVD-R
pretty often. More so than 20 years though. I've read an article, can't
remember where - that said a CD-R that could last 10 years was pretty good.
Organizing cd/dvd's by age seems like a good idea for this. Who's got the
time for that though?
In the process of moving, I was able to get data off of CD-R's (single
speed, gold backed) as late as 1996. Silver backed single speed CD-RW's
written around this time were completely unreadable, causing me to lose some
data from that era.
Just don't be fooled that they'll last 20 or 30 years. In my personal
experience, they don't.
Glen
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
> David Locklear said:
>
>>I think the next hurdle is to develop a laptop that doesn't use batteries,
>> and uses a crank and some kind of power saving device not affected by
>> storage.
>
> Why not make your computer solar powered? I don't know the
expected
> lifetime of solar panels, but ones stored dry and in the dark might last a
> long time. Take them and your archived computer out into the sun and let
> 'er rip. Presumably there will still be sunshine, unless the future is a
> Matrix sort of world. ;-) Actually, electricity will still likely be
used
> and available in some form for a long time. Just provide a simple set of
> terminals on your computer and any power source of the future with the
> proper voltage and amperage should work. The bigger problem would be
> communicating anything 500 years into the future. What language would you
> use?
>
> Bill Mixon said:
>
>>Anyway, there wouldn't be any convenient way to get the data out of the
>> computer, even if you could read it on screen.
>
> It seems likely that some sort of scanning technology will be
around
> for quite a while. Assuming the language on the screen could be
understood,
> it shouldn't be too much trouble to scan it, or take the equivalent of
> movies of it, and then convert that into whatever the current digital
format
> is. Again the bigger problem would be making the archived output
> meaningful. Pictures might be better than anything written.
>
> Mark
>
> You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those interested, we burned data onto a "permanent" DVD for a friend a
year ago. They left it open in the office under florescent lights. It is now
defunct. Apparently everybody but us knew that florescent lights destroy
CD/DVDs.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Goldsmith
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Expected_lifespan
In short, Mixon is right - you'll have to copy the contents of a CD-R/DVD-R
pretty often. More so than 20 years though. I've read an article, can't
remember where - that said a CD-R that could last 10 years was pretty good.
Organizing cd/dvd's by age seems like a good idea for this. Who's got the
time for that though?
In the process of moving, I was able to get data off of CD-R's (single
speed, gold backed) as late as 1996. Silver backed single speed CD-RW's
written around this time were completely unreadable, causing me to lose some
data from that era.
Just don't be fooled that they'll last 20 or 30 years. In my personal
experience, they don't.
Glen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My sister in-law is an archival librarian with the State library in
Austin. She was just railing on CDs & DVDs and how "archivally poor"
they are for permanent data storage, even when kept in the most pristine
"air & light tight" conditions in an archival library.
She and the state library still swear by microfiche and other silver
coated films for permanent archival data storage.
Ah technology at its finest!
Clover Clamons
cclam...@swca.com
________________________________
From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 11:27 AM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: Fw: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
For those interested, we burned data onto a "permanent" DVD for a friend
a year ago. They left it open in the office under florescent lights. It
is now defunct. Apparently everybody but us knew that florescent lights
destroy CD/DVDs.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Goldsmith <mailto:glen.goldsm...@gmail.com>
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Expected_lifespan
In short, Mixon is right - you'll have to copy the contents of a
CD-R/DVD-R pretty often. More so than 20 years though. I've read an
article, can't remember where - that said a CD-R that could last 10
years was pretty good. Organizing cd/dvd's by age seems like a good
idea for this. Who's got the time for that though?
In the process of moving, I was able to get data off of CD-R's (single
speed, gold backed) as late as 1996. Silver backed single speed
CD-RW's written around this time were completely unreadable, causing me
to lose some data from that era.
Just don't be fooled that they'll last 20 or 30 years. In my personal
experience, they don't.
Glen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clover,
Has she said anything about the gold archival CDs and DVDs? There's an
interesting article on choosing archival media (written in 06, but with
updates) at
http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media
Louise
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:34:44 -0700
From: cclam...@swca.com
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
My sister in-law is an archival librarian with the State library in Austin.
She was just railing on CDs & DVDs and how "archivally poor" they are for
permanent data storage, even when kept in the most pristine "air & light tight"
conditions in an archival library.
She and the state library still swear by microfiche and other silver coated
films for permanent archival data storage.
Ah technology at its finest!
Clover Clamons
cclam...@swca.com
From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 11:27 AM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: Fw: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
For those interested, we burned data onto a "permanent" DVD for a friend a year
ago. They left it open in the office under florescent lights. It is now
defunct. Apparently everybody but us knew that florescent lights destroy
CD/DVDs.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Goldsmith
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Expected_lifespan
In short, Mixon is right - you'll have to copy the contents of a CD-R/DVD-R
pretty often. More so than 20 years though. I've read an article, can't
remember where - that said a CD-R that could last 10 years was pretty good.
Organizing cd/dvd's by age seems like a good idea for this. Who's got the time
for that though?
In the process of moving, I was able to get data off of CD-R's (single speed,
gold backed) as late as 1996. Silver backed single speed CD-RW's written
around this time were completely unreadable, causing me to lose some data from
that era.
Just don't be fooled that they'll last 20 or 30 years. In my personal
experience, they don't.
Glen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My cd's were in a cd case, with about 100 others. It stayed zipped up in my
about 98% of the time. That's a good article, I read it then but then,
haven't ordered any.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com>wrote:
> Clover,
>
> Has she said anything about the gold archival CDs and DVDs? There's an
> interesting article on choosing archival media (written in 06, but with
> updates) at
>
>
> http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media
>
> Louise
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:34:44 -0700
> From: cclam...@swca.com
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
>
>
> My sister in-law is an archival librarian with the State library in
> Austin. She was just railing on CDs & DVDs and how "archivally poor" they
> are for permanent data storage, even when kept in the most pristine "air &
> light tight" conditions in an archival library.
>
> She and the state library still swear by microfiche and other silver coated
> films for permanent archival data storage.
>
> Ah technology at its finest!
>
> Clover Clamons
> cclam...@swca.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 11:27 AM
> *To:* Texas Cavers
> *Subject:* Fw: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
>
> For those interested, we burned data onto a "permanent" DVD for a friend
> a year ago. They left it open in the office under florescent lights. It is
> now defunct. Apparently everybody but us knew that florescent lights destroy
> CD/DVDs.
>
> John
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Glen Goldsmith <glen.goldsm...@gmail.com>
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2009 9:41 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Expected_lifespan
>
> In short, Mixon is right - you'll have to copy the contents of a CD-R/DVD-R
> pretty often. More so than 20 years though. I've read an article, can't
> remember where - that said a CD-R that could last 10 years was pretty good.
> Organizing cd/dvd's by age seems like a good idea for this. Who's got the
> time for that though?
>
> In the process of moving, I was able to get data off of CD-R's (single
> speed, gold backed) as late as 1996. Silver backed single speed CD-RW's
> written around this time were completely unreadable, causing me to lose some
> data from that era.
>
> Just don't be fooled that they'll last 20 or 30 years. In my personal
> experience, they don't.
>
> Glen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have kept paper copies of the Texas Caver around for over 30 years....there
hasn't been any degradation, other folded corners or slight yellowing of the
paper....and I haven't had to make new copies every 10 years or so......and
unlike digital copies which may, by the admissions below, not be around in 30
years...I suspect my boxes of Texas Cavers will out live me.
--- On Fri, 12/18/09, Glen Goldsmith <glen.goldsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Glen Goldsmith <glen.goldsm...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: archiving your cave data
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 10:41 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Expected_lifespan
In short, Mixon is right - you'll have to copy the contents of a CD-R/DVD-R
pretty often. More so than 20 years though. I've read an article, can't
remember where - that said a CD-R that could last 10 years was pretty good.
Organizing cd/dvd's by age seems like a good idea for this. Who's got the time
for that though?
In the process of moving, I was able to get data off of CD-R's (single speed,
gold backed) as late as 1996. Silver backed single speed CD-RW's written
around this time were completely unreadable, causing me to lose some data from
that era.
Just don't be fooled that they'll last 20 or 30 years. In my personal
experience, they don't.
Glen
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Mark Minton <mmin...@caver.net> wrote:
> David Locklear said:
>
>>I think the next hurdle is to develop a laptop that doesn't use batteries,
>> and uses a crank and some kind of power saving device not affected by
>> storage.
>
> Why not make your computer solar powered? I don't know the expected
> lifetime of solar panels, but ones stored dry and in the dark might last a
> long time. Take them and your archived computer out into the sun and let
> 'er rip. Presumably there will still be sunshine, unless the future is a
> Matrix sort of world. ;-) Actually, electricity will still likely be used
> and available in some form for a long time. Just provide a simple set of
> terminals on your computer and any power source of the future with the
> proper voltage and amperage should work. The bigger problem would be
> communicating anything 500 years into the future. What language would you
> use?
>
> Bill Mixon said:
>
>>Anyway, there wouldn't be any convenient way to get the data out of the
>> computer, even if you could read it on screen.
>
> It seems likely that some sort of scanning technology will be around
> for quite a while. Assuming the language on the screen could be understood,
> it shouldn't be too much trouble to scan it, or take the equivalent of
> movies of it, and then convert that into whatever the current digital format
> is. Again the bigger problem would be making the archived output
> meaningful. Pictures might be better than anything written.
>
> Mark
>
> You may reply to mmin...@caver.net
> Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
Dangerous, anyway, in the vicinity of a toilet! I lost a Motorola Flip-Phone
that way,
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
Cc: texascavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 10:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
I don't know about y'all, but my NSS News & Texas Caver live on the toilet tank
for a few weeks as browsing material during my peaceful moments on the throne.
I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
Don's iPhone.
On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Chris Vreeland <cvreel...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I have yet to have a piece of paper run out of batteries.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
Yes,
Also storing things in your shirt pockets around open water wells creates
certain opportunities you don't want to deal with.
Geary
From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:51 AM
To: donarb...@mac.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
Don,
I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
Dangerous, anyway, in the vicinity of a toilet! I lost a Motorola Flip-Phone
that way,
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
Cc: texascavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 10:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email addresses?
I don't know about y'all, but my NSS News & Texas Caver live on the toilet tank
for a few weeks as browsing material during my peaceful moments on the throne.
I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
Don's iPhone.
On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Chris Vreeland
<cvreel...@austin.rr.com<mailto:cvreel...@austin.rr.com>> wrote:
> I have yet to have a piece of paper run out of batteries.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>
For additional commands, e-mail:
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My info that CD-R and DVD-R will "outlast the technology" comes from
http://www.itl.nist.gov/iad/894.05/papers/CDandDVDCareandHandlingGuide.pdf
published by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and
the Council on Library and Information Resources as a care and
handling guide for librarians. It is fairly old (2003) now, though. It
does point out that CD-Rs can't be exposed to too much light.
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our plumber Marty has a plumbing business with his two sons. One day
we were having a problem with our connection to the Irving City Sewer
system (tree roots had invaded the line, which we eventually replaced)
and Marty was bent over the open connection to our sewer line,
preparing to run a snake down it. His youngest son chastised him
loudly for leaving his cell phone in his front shirt pocket. You
wouldn't think that the odds would be high for having the phone slide
out of a shirt pocket and down such a small hole, but apparently this
had become a rather expensive occupational hazard for him.
Diana
On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:55 AM, Geary Schindel wrote:
Yes,
Also storing things in your shirt pockets around open water wells
creates certain opportunities you don’t want to deal with.
Geary
From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:51 AM
To: donarb...@mac.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email
addresses?
Don,
I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
Dangerous, anyway, in the vicinity of a toilet! I lost a Motorola
Flip-Phone that way,
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
Cc: texascavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 10:34 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email
addresses?
I don't know about y'all, but my NSS News & Texas Caver live on the
toilet tank for a few weeks as browsing material during my peaceful
moments on the throne.
I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
Don's iPhone.
On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Chris Vreeland
<cvreel...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I have yet to have a piece of paper run out of batteries.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my case, the phone was clipped on my belt. But the belt proved not to be
thick enough to keep the phone from sliding down it and you know the rest.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Tomchick <diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu>
To: Geary Schindel <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>
Cc: cavera...@aol.com <cavera...@aol.com>; donarb...@mac.com
<donarb...@mac.com>; texascavers@texascavers.com <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:40 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can plumbers be trusted with cell phones?
Our plumber Marty has a plumbing business with his two sons. One day we were
having a problem with our connection to the Irving City Sewer system (tree
roots had invaded the line, which we eventually replaced) and Marty was bent
over the open connection to our sewer line, preparing to run a snake down it.
His youngest son chastised him loudly for leaving his cell phone in his front
shirt pocket. You wouldn't think that the odds would be high for having the
phone slide out of a shirt pocket and down such a small hole, but apparently
this had become a rather expensive occupational hazard for him.
Diana
On Dec 18, 2009, at 10:55 AM, Geary Schindel wrote:
> Yes,
>
> Also storing things in your shirt pockets around open water wells > creates
> certain opportunities you don’t want to deal with.
>
> Geary
>
>
>
> From: cavera...@aol.com [mailto:cavera...@aol.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 10:51 AM
> To: donarb...@mac.com
> Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email > addresses?
>
> Don,
> I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
> Dangerous, anyway, in the vicinity of a toilet! I lost a Motorola >
> Flip-Phone that way,
>
> Roger
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Arburn <donarb...@mac.com>
> Cc: texascavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Sent: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 10:34 pm
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Can TSA be trusted with email > addresses?
>
> I don't know about y'all, but my NSS News & Texas Caver live on the > toilet
> tank for a few weeks as browsing material during my peaceful > moments on the
> throne.
>
> I can't imagine reading The Caver on my iPhone.
>
> Don's iPhone.
>
> On Dec 17, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Chris Vreeland > <cvreel...@austin.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have yet to have a piece of paper run out of batteries.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email:
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
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