texascavers Digest 17 Jan 2009 15:27:33 -0000 Issue 692
Topics (messages 9958 through 9969):
Re: reduced dues for electronic CAVER
9958 by: Joe Ranzau
9959 by: Fritz Holt
subscription and dues sorted out
9960 by: Gill Ediger
Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes
9961 by: Butch Fralia
9966 by: Minton, Mark
9967 by: Mike Flannigan
cost of Texas Caver
9962 by: Mixon Bill
9963 by: Charles Goldsmith
Re: A bit of history for everyone :
9964 by: jerryatkin.aol.com
9969 by: Denise P
UNTHAW
9965 by: Johnson, Russ (ATX)
hard copies again
9968 by: Gill Ediger
Administrivia:
To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com>
To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:
<texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com>
To post to the list, e-mail:
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
The TSA has over 6k in the bank...
Joe
j...@oztotl.com
Sent while mobile
On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com>
wrote:
Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the
coffers, not take it out.:)
-----Original Message-----
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER
At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version
Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues
printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it
printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues.
Right?
Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the
government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of
managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in
driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of
that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any
strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him.
--Ediger
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's good news. I can't keep track of which caving organization purchases
caves but I am guessing that it would take more than that to make a down
payment on another one or to pay off an existing one. In that sense, I doubt
that we are overly funded. I am amazed that we can do as much as we do with
what we have.
Fritz
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Ranzau [mailto:jran...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:51 PM
To: Fritz Holt
Cc: Gill Ediger; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER
The TSA has over 6k in the bank...
Joe
j...@oztotl.com
Sent while mobile
On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com>
wrote:
> Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the
> coffers, not take it out.:)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER
>
> At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>> Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
>> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
>> To: Cavers Texas
>> Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version
>>
>> Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues
>> printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it
>> printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues.
>> Right?
>
> Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the
> government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of
> managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in
> driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of
> that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any
> strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him.
>
> --Ediger
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:56 PM 1/16/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
Gill, I'll match it, $100 a year!
>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
>> "You will pay $20 and use electronic version."
>
> I'd pay a TSA membership of $100 a year if they would just make an online
> copy of The CAVER....
Thanks, Charles, that's the kind of attitude we need. But let me
explain this $20 business to those few persistant readers who still
don't seem to have gotten the point.
The idea of paying $20 to get an electronic version is not the point
at all! The $20 you pay for TSA membership is for supporting TSA
activities. The $20 IS NOT a subscription to The TEXAS CAVER. That is
FREE. Let me say it again: The TEXAS CAVER is provided as a free
service to TSA Members--the hard copy or the electronic version.
Period. The $20 has not a damned thing to do with a subscription to
anything. We had, at one time, a TC subscription and TSA dues, paid
to different entities. Those two things--membership and the TC
subscription--should never have gotten confused. The sad fact is,
though, that as the production and mailing costs of The CAVER
increased, more and more of the dues went into paying for it--to the
point that it now doesn't.
The point is that there are a lot of better uses that can be made of
TSA dues money than pissing it away on an antiquated system of
information distribution just to satisfy somebody's traditional and
outdated perogatives for a slick publication. Technology has brought
us far enough forward that you can print out for very little money a
better looking hard copy in the privacy of your own home than the TSA
can afford to print and mail out to you anymore. What is the obvious
course here? Who's not paying attention?
Remember, the TSA dues of $20 represents nothing more than TSA dues;
it is not a subscription to The TEXAS CAVER and was never intended to
be. That subscription is free and should continue to be. Don't
confuse the two or you will be confused.
Thanks for your attention,
--Ediger, again
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
It should work now, when I fixed the state problem on the register page, I
forgot to change something in the JavaScript validation and ended up with a
syntax error.
The strange characters are a result of PHP and MySQL database commands. The
way around it is to change the character set to UTF-8. I did that once and
ended up with a mess. A few squigglies vs having to redo the website was a
no brainer for me.
Butch
From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:22 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; bfra...@maverickgrotto.org
Subject: RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes
Butch,
>You can now update your profile online and change the state on both
registration and your profile.
It still doesn't work right for me. Virginia is now accepted as my
state, but when I hit Confirm Registration, the same registration screen
pops back up. There are no errors listed, but the registration won't go
through. I tried it several times in both IE and Firefox. There is also
some strange code at the top of the registration form:  (probably
irrelevant).
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Butch,
>It should work now, when I fixed the state problem on the register page, I
>forgot to change something in the JavaScript validation and ended up with a
>syntax error.
Unfortunately, not completely. Now I'm getting a state selection error
again for Virginia. VA shows up as my state, but I get an error that says
"State Select: , State: VA". Sigh. A new error has also appeared. Instead of
Yes or No in the Display me on the Member list? option, it has my last name as
my response. However the registration did appear to go through when I
submitted it the second time, so we'll see if I actually get approved and can
edit my profile and see the Texas Caver. Thanks for keeping on this.
Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm publisher for another club (not caving related).
We charge $10 per year for all single person
memberships. We did all paper mailed newsletters
until about 1 year ago. Used to send out all paper
newsletters. Now we send out 18 paper copies
and about 60 e-mailed PDF's. PDF's are in color,
mailed copies are B&W. Only club members can
get the newsletter.
The club above has VERY old members, so your
PDF % is likely to be much higher. They also
have tons of money, so financial losses due to
mailings are not an issue. We really went to
PDF because our copier broke.
I would recommend only club members get the
newsletter, but have a 2 tier pay system. Your
mailings will go down drastically (I think), and
your publisher (Mark) will be very happy.
Mike Flannigan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for
Mexican Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-
stitched in a cover printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w
pages (_four more_ than are in the most recent TC), the quote for
quantity between 150 and 249 copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup
charges. The per-copy price changes by only about 5 cents for more or
fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge comes to 30 cents a copy,
for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is in Kalamazoo, so
you'd have to add maybe another $60 for shipping to Texas; I'll be
generous and make it $2.75 in all.
Now add maybe 5 cents for a mailing envelope and 2 cents for a mailing
label. I don't know what postage actually is, but I'll guess for non-
profit bulk rate it is 40 cents a copy. This brings us up to a grand
total of $3.22 for each copy of the Texas Caver mailed to a member. At
four issues a year, we're talking $13. (You can do the arithmetic if
there are more or fewer than 200 TSA members; it affects only the
setup and shipping.)
I'd say whoever is publishing the Texas Caver at a cost of $26 per
member per year needs to do a bit of printer-shopping. I won't blame
anybody for not wanting to deal with a printer in Kalamazoo four times
a year, but deals not too much worse must be available locally
(remember you've got that shipping cost as a cushion).
I realize there are some free exchange copies mailed out that also
cost the TSA something, and of course a small stock of additional
copies for later sale (25, say) will be wanted, but still I think the
TSA should be able to afford to send the Texas Caver to all its
members under the present dues.
Whether older issue should be on the Web and under what restrictions
are separate questions.
-- Bill Mixon
----------------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
doing the leg work.
However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
don't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
should not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
from the dues, that money should go elsewhere.
I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than
printing/mailing our newsletter.
Charles
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for Mexican
> Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-stitched in a cover
> printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w pages (_four more_ than
> are in the most recent TC), the quote for quantity between 150 and 249
> copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup charges. The per-copy price changes by
> only about 5 cents for more or fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge
> comes to 30 cents a copy, for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is
> in Kalamazoo, so you'd have to add maybe another $60 for shipping to Texas;
> I'll be generous and make it $2.75 in all.
>
> Now add maybe 5 cents for a mailing envelope and 2 cents for a mailing
> label. I don't know what postage actually is, but I'll guess for non-profit
> bulk rate it is 40 cents a copy. This brings us up to a grand total of $3.22
> for each copy of the Texas Caver mailed to a member. At four issues a year,
> we're talking $13. (You can do the arithmetic if there are more or fewer
> than 200 TSA members; it affects only the setup and shipping.)
>
> I'd say whoever is publishing the Texas Caver at a cost of $26 per member
> per year needs to do a bit of printer-shopping. I won't blame anybody for
> not wanting to deal with a printer in Kalamazoo four times a year, but deals
> not too much worse must be available locally (remember you've got that
> shipping cost as a cushion).
>
> I realize there are some free exchange copies mailed out that also cost the
> TSA something, and of course a small stock of additional copies for later
> sale (25, say) will be wanted, but still I think the TSA should be able to
> afford to send the Texas Caver to all its members under the present dues.
>
> Whether older issue should be on the Web and under what restrictions are
> separate questions.
> -- Bill Mixon
> ----------------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational
nonetheless.
The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very
important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While
it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe
that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of
electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history
of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to
the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the
TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of
the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The
minutes read:
"The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it
optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per
issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the
current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red.
Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs.
Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the
hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of
offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see
what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put
on20the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this."
As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It
seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal.
Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting.
Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences
of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were
approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out
there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be
lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be
belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her
rocking chair.
Note to the TSA officers:
1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an
agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com).
2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old
minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your
organization.
3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things
that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history has not
supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have
approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash
flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and m
ailing options. The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years
(it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and
productive than today.
4.) Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what does the
TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership.
5.) We actually lowered TSA dues in 2003 as theTexas Caver was not being
printed on a regular basis.
6.) The Secretary could expand a bit on some of the more important topics
discussed at the TSA meetings when writing up the minutes. e.g. In the
Treasurer's Report, there was no mention of the actual balance in the TSA
accounts, even though that was a central topic of the meeting.
Hang in there guys, there's nothing like on the job training.
Jerry.
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>
To: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver
Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
oing the leg work.
However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
on't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
hould not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
rom the dues, that money should go elsewhere.
I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than
rinting/mailing our newsletter.
Charles
On Fri, Jan 16,
2009 at 6:40 PM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for Mexican
Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-stitched in a cover
printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w pages (_four more_ than
are in the most recent TC), the quote for quantity between 150 and 249
copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup charges. The per-copy price changes by
only about 5 cents for more or fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge
comes to 30 cents a copy, for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is
in Kalamazoo, so you'd have to add maybe another $60 for shipping to Texas;
I'll be generous and make it $2.75 in all.
Now add maybe 5 cents for a mailing envelope and 2 cents for a mailing
label. I don't know what postage actually is, but I'll guess for non-profit
bulk rate it is 40 cents a copy. This brings us up to a grand total of $3.22
for each copy of the Texas Caver mailed to a member. At four issues a year,
we're talking $13. (You can do the arithmetic if there are more or fewer
than 200 TSA members; it affects only the setup and shipping.)
I'd say whoever is publishing the Texas Caver at a cost of $26 per member
per year needs to do a bit of printer-shopping. I won't blame anybody for
not wanting to deal with a printer in Kalamazoo four times a year, but deals
not too much worse must be available locally (remember you've got=2
0that
shipping cost as a cushion).
I realize there are some free exchange copies mailed out that also cost the
TSA something, and of course a small stock of additional copies for later
sale (25, say) will be wanted, but still I think the TSA should be able to
afford to send the Texas Caver to all its members under the present dues.
Whether older issue should be on the Web and under what restrictions are
separate questions.
-- Bill Mixon
----------------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
isit our website: http://texascavers.com
o unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
or additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, and
my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the meeting.
Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about going electronic on
the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder (hopefully), and can check it and
report back. Though I'd rather not sit through that entire 1.25-hour meeting
again, painful. It did not seem that important to me, so I only reported what
seemed relevant. I had no idea it would be that controversial. I need to become
better at foreseeing the future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and
reading years of meeting minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I
would resign.
Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we had
$7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that was the
big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did focus on
the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire Treasurer's Report
on the TSA website for full disclosure.
It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder to
get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just love to
find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying to do our
best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us officers a
flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak for the rest.
-Denise
To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2009
22:58:05 -0500From: jerryatkin@aol.comCC: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject:
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :Interesting discussion.
Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless.The number of
postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point:
the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that
only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of
members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs
hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA
with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA
officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was
going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last
meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes
read:"The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and
making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save
$5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with
the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the
red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save
costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer
than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea
of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see
what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on
the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this."As I read that, the
issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit
further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should
have voted on the issue at the last meeting.Several years ago, the general
membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for
the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but
there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper
copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or
silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight
you if you try to take away her rocking chair.Note to the TSA officers: 1.) If
you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an agenda
before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com).2.) Those that do
not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old minutes from past
meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your organization.3.) While
it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things that these
savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history h as not supported
this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have approximately
$7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash flow balance
with a more prudent selection of printers and mailing options. The TSA
operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years (it once had a balance of
$21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and productive than today. 4.)
Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what does the TSA
want to become in order to better serve it's membership.5.) We actually
lowered TSA dues in 2003 as theTexas Caver was not being printed on a regular
basis.6.) The Secretary could expand a bit on some of the more important
topics discussed at the TSA meetings when writing up the minutes. e.g. In the
Treasurer's Report, there was no mention of the actual balance in the TSA
accounts, even though that was a central topic of the meeting.Hang in there
guys, there's nothing like on the job training.Jerry.-----Original
Message-----From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>To: Mixon Bill
<bmixon...@austin.rr.com>Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>Sent:
Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:09 pmSubject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver
Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
doing the leg work.
However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
don't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
should not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
from the dues, that money should go elsewhere.
I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than
printing/mailing our newsletter.
Charles
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for Mexican
> Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-stitched in a cover
> printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w pages (_four more_ than
> are in the most recent TC), the quote for quantity between 150 and 249
> copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup charges. The per-copy price changes by
> only about 5 cents for more or fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge
> comes to 30 cents a copy, for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is
> in Kalamazoo, so you'd have to add maybe another $60 for shipping to Texas;
> I'll be generous and make it $2.75 in all.
>
> Now add maybe 5 cents for a mailing envelope and 2 cents for a mailing
> label. I don't know what postage actually is, but
I'll guess for non-profit
> bulk rate it is 40 cents a copy. This brings us up to a grand total of $3.22
> for each copy of the Texas Caver mailed to a member. At four issues a year,
> we're talking $13. (You can do the arithmetic if there are more or fewer
> than 200 TSA members; it affects only the setup and shipping.)
>
> I'd say whoever is publishing the Texas Caver at a cost of $26 per member
> per year needs to do a bit of printer-shopping. I won't blame anybody for
> not wanting to deal with a printer in Kalamazoo four times a year, but deals
> not too much worse must be available locally (remember you've got that
> shipping cost as a cushion).
>
> I realize there are some free exchange copies mailed out that also cost the
> TSA something, and of course a small stock of additional copies for later
> sale (25, say) will be wanted, but still I think the TSA should be able to
> afford to send the Texas Caver to all its members under the present dues.
>
> Whether older issue should be on the Web and under what restrictions are
> separate questions.
> -- Bill Mixon
> ----------------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi
t...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My likely futile attempt at changing the subject:
I cannot ravel the last 50 posts and remain unstupid, irregardless.
PRINT THESE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contronym
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contronym>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-contradicting_words_in_English
Russ
Llano
COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL: This e-mail and attachments may contain information which
is company confidential and proprietary. Disclosure or use of any such
information without the written permission of Weston Solutions, Inc. is
strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the
sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Thank You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:05 AM 1/17/2009, Mike Flannigan wrote:
We did all paper mailed newsletters
until about 1 year ago. Used to send out all paper
newsletters. Now we send out 18 paper copies
and about 60 e-mailed PDF's. PDF's are in color,
mailed copies are B&W. Only club members can
get the newsletter.
Here's a good question that nobody's brought up yet. If I can
download a PDF, print it out in color, two sided, properly collated,
at home (or at work), why in the world would I prefer that The TC
editor print out a color master copy, go down to the Office Depot,
print out a lesser quality B&W photo copy, then go home and mail to
me, all at an added expense and hassle? Why? Just because I insisted
on having a hard copy that somebody else had to hassle over? It
doesn't make sense. I can have a better quality copy at home over the
internet than the TSA can ever deliver me in a USPS delivered hard
copy--at no expese to the TSA.
I would recommend only club members get the
newsletter, but have a 2 tier pay system. Your
mailings will go down drastically (I think), and
your publisher (Mark) will be very happy.
Yes, they will. But the TSA should be about Texas caves, caving, and
cavers, not just an elite group of caver-politicians who exclude
those Texas cavers who don't share their enthusiasm for
organization--such as it is. An organization dedicated to safety and
conservation and good caving would logically want to spread its
message to the maximum number of cavers--not just those few who
choose to join the organization. They would be working at cross
purposes otherwise--not seeking to educate those independent cavers
who's habits they are most in need of affecting. And they would not
be taking advantage of an excellent opportunity to attract new
members to the organization.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
