Good post and good idea, Charles, and I'll start posting the agenda beforehand. I thought of the same thing, after the fact. You're doing a fine job, Denise, and the minutes looks fine to me. The TC going electronic was covered well in the minutes, although, I have the feeling the bulk of the people here haven't even bothered reading them. Never a dull moment. Mark
________________________________ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Sat 1/17/2009 2:22 PM To: Denise P Cc: TexasCavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Denise, I wasn't there, so I can't compare the notes, and it sounds like a lot of the people complaining weren't either. There is no way you could have forseen this. I'll say this for the last time to all of the naysayers, stop complaining if you didn't attend the meeting! These are our elected officials, if you don't like the way they run things, change it during the next election! If you don't like the decisions they are making, show up and vote! It would probably be prudent for the officers to post an agenda from now on, preferably a few weeks in advance and here to the mailing list, so people can make plans to attend. Would this have solved our problems here? Probably not, because it sounds like the issue was the red ink, and these decisions were in response to that. Just my $0.02 worth, and take it for what it's worth, since I didn't attend either :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Denise P <pepabe...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, > and my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the > meeting. Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about > going electronic on the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder > (hopefully), and can check it and report back. Though I'd rather not sit > through that entire 1.25-hour meeting again, painful. It did not seem that > important to me, so I only reported what seemed relevant. I had no idea it > would be that controversial. I need to become better at foreseeing the > future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and reading years of meeting > minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I would resign. > > Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we > had $7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that > was the big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did > focus on the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire > Treasurer's Report on the TSA website for full disclosure. > > It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder > to get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just > love to find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying > to do our best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us > officers a flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak > for the rest. > > -Denise > > > ________________________________ > To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.com > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 -0500 > From: jerryat...@aol.com > CC: texascavers@texascavers.com > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : > > Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational > nonetheless. > > The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very > important point: the membership considers this a rather important > issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this > discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the > other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several > times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It > should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat > controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not > explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't > even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: > > "The TSA Needs Money - Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making > it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 > per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with > the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the > red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save > costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be > longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose > the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those > interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on > how it could be put on the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on > this." > > As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It > seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. > Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting. > > Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their > preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results > were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few > people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires > should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly > should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to > take away her rocking chair. > > Note to the TSA officers: > 1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an > agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com). > 2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old > minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your > organization. > 3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great > things that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA > history h as not supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA > did not have approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a > positive cash flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and > mailing options. The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 > years (it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust > and productive than today. > 4.) Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what > does the TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership. > 5.) We actually lowered TSA dues in 2003 as theTexas Caver was not being > printed on a regular basis. > 6.) The Secretary could expand a bit on some of the more important topics > discussed at the TSA meetings when writing up the minutes. e.g. In the > Treasurer's Report, there was no mention of the actual balance in the TSA > accounts, even though that was a central topic of the meeting. > > Hang in there guys, there's nothing like on the job training. > > Jerry. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org> > To: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> > Cc: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com> > Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:09 pm > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver > > > Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been > doing the leg work. > > However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that > don't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there > should not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA > from the dues, that money should go elsewhere. > > I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than > printing/mailing our newsletter. > > Charles > > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote: >> I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for >> Mexican >> Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-stitched in a >> cover >> printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w pages (_four more_ than >> are in the most recent TC), the quote for quantity between 150 and 249 >> copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup charges. The per-copy price changes >> by >> only about 5 cents for more or fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup >> charge >> comes to 30 cents a copy, for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is >> in Kalamazoo, so you'd have to add maybe another $60 for shipping to >> Texas; >> I'll be generous and make it $2.75 in all. >> >> Now add maybe 5 cents for a mailing envelope and 2 cents for a mailing >> label. I don't know what postage actually is, but > I'll guess for non-profit >> bulk rate it is 40 cents a copy. This brings us up to a grand total of >> $3.22 >> for each copy of the Texas Caver mailed to a member. At four issues a >> year, >> we're talking $13. (You can do the arithmetic if there are more or fewer >> than 200 TSA members; it affects only the setup and shipping.) >> >> I'd say whoever is publishing the Texas Caver at a cost of $26 per member >> per year needs to do a bit of printer-shopping. I won't blame anybody for >> not wanting to deal with a printer in Kalamazoo four times a year, but >> deals >> not too much worse must be available locally (remember you've got that >> shipping cost as a cushion). >> >> I realize there are some free exchange copies mailed out that also cost >> the >> TSA something, and of course a small stock of additional copies for later >> sale (25, say) will be wanted, but still I think the TSA should be able to >> afford to send the Texas Caver to all its members under the present dues. >> >> Whether older issue should be on the Web and under what restrictions are >> separate questions. >> -- Bill Mixon >> ---------------------------------------------- >> You may "reply" to the address this message >> came from, but for long-term use, save: >> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu >> AMCS: edi > t...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > > > ________________________________ > A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. 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