texascavers Digest 12 Dec 2008 16:32:13 -0000 Issue 667
Topics (messages 9660 through 9674):
Re: Cave accident in New Braunfels
9660 by: George Veni
TV Show tonight
9661 by: Geary Schindel
Re: OT - price of gas
9662 by: Don Cooper
9668 by: Simon Newton
9669 by: Lyndon Tiu
9670 by: Lyndon Tiu
Harry Walker - part 2
9663 by: David
9664 by: Preston Forsythe
Cave accident (long and involved diatribe)
9665 by: Gill Ediger
9667 by: Preston Forsythe
9673 by: Ted Samsel
9674 by: CaverArch
Harry Walker--p 2, more
9666 by: Gill Ediger
Environmentalists blast changes to Endangered Species rules - CNN.com
9671 by: Joe Ranzau
While Detroit Slept - A Better Place Arose
9672 by: Nancy Weaver
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--- Begin Message ---
The description of the cave is not very good in the report, and is probably
exaggerated and wrong in some parts due to the usual translation issues from
non-cavers to the media. Little Gem and Little Gem Annex have long been
known in that area, but don't have entrances that would require a tripod to
haul someone out. The most likely cave, at least of those listed in the TSS
files, is Pokey's Pit. It has an 7-m deep entrance pit. If someone fell down
it, they would slide down about 3-m into a crawl that may be the crevice
mentioned in the news article.
George
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Cradit [mailto:jcra...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:02 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Cave accident in New Braunfels
http://herald-zeitung.com/story.lasso?ewcd=40742c686e3b489b&-session=Her
aldZeitung:4830E2641d9141C487tNU2444D85
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--- Begin Message ---
On the DSC channel on cable, there is a program titled How Stuff Works
which has a segment on Water. It airs at 7PM central time. It says it
has some information on caves. I was told that George and I were on TV
other night so this might be the same show. If they don't give our
names, you can tell George and I apart as I'm the good looking one.
Geary Schindel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My thinking is that part of the reason it's so low now is because so many
financial hedge funds were betting that it would stay high. Part of the
reason it's cheap now is because it was "paid forward" when it was so
unreasonably high. When we were all getting "ripped off" where did all that
money go? It's now paying for unreasonably cheap gasoline. But has anyone
else noticed that diesel is a WHOLE lot more *now* than it was the
*last*time gasoline was $1.50 a gallon?
At that point, diesel was only $1.60 to $1.70. Something stinks here!
And speaking of OIL - this really is a burr in my craw... I had to pay $14
for 5 quarts of decent motor oil at Wally Whirled the other day. Man! That
used to be THE cheapest place for motor oil. Auto zone is just about the
same price. WHAT IS *THAT *about???
-WaV
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com>wrote:
> I was generally referring to imported oil prices and profit margins as
> that is where most of it comes from.
>
> Fritz
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Brian Riordan [mailto:riordan.br...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:43 PM
> *To:* Fritz Holt
> *Cc:* David; Texascavers Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] OT - price of gas
>
>
>
> It all depends. A classic Texas gusher takes nothing to get a lot.
> Deepwater fields cost a certain amount to initiate, produce and transport,
> if the current price doesn't offset that, they lose, while the Texas gusher
> may still make money. Canadian Oil Sands require even more to upgrade the
> oil (besides, who the hell wants to work in Northern Alberta, just take a
> look at housing prices!
> http://www.colinhartigan.com/view_listing.php?listing=mls&id=8320001070)-
> it takes so much energy to produce the crude oil here, that without a high
> oil price, it doesn't make sense to dig it up. If a company initiates a
> project because it became economical at 80 bucks a barrel, they may lose
> money on that field for every day of production under 80 bucks/barrel, while
> the Texas gusher STILL makes money. To oversimplify...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Fritz Holt <fh...@townandcountryins.com>
> wrote:
>
> Oil companies are complaining because oil has dropped from $140. a barrel
> to below $50. Some years back when oil was at or below $20. they said if
> only the price could get back to $30. Although, I have read where the oil
> companies/refiners do not make a higher percentage of profit when oil prices
> are high. There are advantages and disadvantages when oil and Gasoline
> prices are high. I personally prefer it at the current price of $1.48 at
> Sam's.
> Fritz
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:26 PM
> To: Texascavers Mailing List
> Subject: [Texascavers] OT - price of gas
>
> I saw gas for $ 1.34 yesterday.
>
> I heard one analyst say that if the economy continues at its current pace,
> that
> gas could fall to 99 cents per gallon in some places.
>
> Where I live, there does not appear to be a decrease in demand for gas, so
> to
> me the huge price drop of $ 2.50 per gallon seems surprising. I am not
> going
> to complain though.
>
> I feel that someone illegally profited from the sale of gas this past
> summer when
> gas prices were at an all-time high. Maybe it wasn't illegal, but
> certainly greedy,
> or something like price-gouging.
>
> David Locklear
>
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Athabasca oil sands have a lifting cost of $22/bbl. So it's economic at a
bit over that.Athabasca jobs pay nicely and generally comes with 4+ weeks
vacation. How many jobs in the US do you get 4 weeks vacation to start? It
may be remote, but it's only about 5 hours driving to Edmonton and most
people who work there can afford flights out.
Can you name any Texas gushers drilled in the last 5 years? Most of the TX
oil wells I'm familiar in the last 5 years are barely economic at $45/bbl.
Might want to double check your facts,
Simon
---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Brian Riordan" <riordan.br...@gmail.com>
> To: "Fritz Holt" <fh...@townandcountryins.com>
> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:42:45 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OT - price of gas
> It all depends. A classic Texas gusher takes nothing to get a lot.
> Deepwater fields cost a certain amount to initiate, produce and transport,
> if the current price doesn't offset that, they lose, while the Texas gusher
> may still make money. Canadian Oil Sands require even more to upgrade the
> oil (besides, who the hell wants to work in Northern Alberta, just take a
> look at housing prices!
> http://www.colinhartigan.com/view_listing.php?listing=mls&id=8320001070)-
> it takes so much energy to produce the crude oil here, that without a high
> oil price, it doesn't make sense to dig it up. If a company initiates a
> project because it became economical at 80 bucks a barrel, they may lose
> money on that field for every day of production under 80 bucks/barrel, while
> the Texas gusher STILL makes money. To oversimplify...
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Three evenings ago on 60 minutes, an interview with the Saudi Oil Minister and
the Aramco CEO. They mentioned that Saudi needs $20 average per barrel to break
even. $55 per barrel to run the whole country.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:21:46 -0600 csnew...@gmail.com wrote:
> and most
> people who work there can afford flights out.
>
I heard companies actually fly their folks out (R/T) to their hometown on a
regular basis as part of their compeansation package.
Don't know if that is still true with the current price of oil.
--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Harry's obituary has already appeared on-line.
http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=7be4776ef852dbd6&-session=TheDailyNews:C6401EC11d9142ED67sOY28770F1
I forgot to mention that he climbed the Matterhorn.
I recall that one of his acheivements was canoeing a nearly virgin
river thru the Sierra Madres. It was somewhere around
Valles and fed into the Rio Tamuin. I think that was in the 70's.
His group did that without much information. They didn't
have Google Earth, or GPS. I don't even think they had reliable topo maps.
If someone knows what grotto he was in back in Virginia in the 1940's,
then they might be interested in hearing more about
Harry.
I only got to know his wife after the hurricane, so someone who knows
her better than me should probably contact her
for more caving information about Harry.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mountain Climbing , Caving and Canoeing...........Harry did it all!!
Preston in Outer Browder
----------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "David" <dlocklea...@gmail.com>
To: "Texascavers Mailing List" <texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Emily
McGowan" <em...@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 7:31 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Harry Walker - part 2
Harry's obituary has already appeared on-line.
http://www.galvnews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=7be4776ef852dbd6&-session=TheDailyNews:C6401EC11d9142ED67sOY28770F1
I forgot to mention that he climbed the Matterhorn.
I recall that one of his acheivements was canoeing a nearly virgin
river thru the Sierra Madres. It was somewhere around
Valles and fed into the Rio Tamuin. I think that was in the 70's.
His group did that without much information. They didn't
have Google Earth, or GPS. I don't even think they had reliable topo
maps.
If someone knows what grotto he was in back in Virginia in the 1940's,
then they might be interested in hearing more about
Harry.
I only got to know his wife after the hurricane, so someone who knows
her better than me should probably contact her
for more caving information about Harry.
David
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At 06:02 PM 12/11/2008, Matt Turner wrote:
Seriously though do we know this person? It says they where looking
for caves so I would think so.
There's always the chance, Matt, that some caver somewhere knows him.
But there is sometimes a concept that all cavers know each other.
They think that about black people and Asians and Baptists and Boy
Scouts and a lot of other groups--that they all know each other. It
just ain't true.
There are a whole lot of people out there who can ligitimately be
called cavers whom most of us "organized cavers" have never heard of
and will never come across. There are several catagories of them and
I'm not even gonna try to get started on them all, but will give you
a couple of examples.
Even the concept of "organized cavers" is a bit nebulous. They are
generally the ones that can be identified as belonging to or
participating in the activities of some sort of caving club--local
Grottos, state or regional organizations such as the TSA, or the NSS.
Projects (CBSP, AMCS, PEP) and surveys (TSS) and conservation groups
like the TCC or TCMA also count. And then there are the friends and
camp followers of the active cavers in that group. They may never
enter a cave but they are an important part of our "organized caver"
social family. In most cases they go caving enough to consider
themselves cavers and we generally recognize them as such. And they
know enough to call a rescue should one be needed.
Now then, there is another nebulous group that I call "county
cavers". They consist mainly of local (read small town, Hill Country
kids--or older kids) who like caving but don't give a damn (for any
of various reasons) for organized cavers. It might be the time and
distance required to go to meetings; it might be that they have their
own tight little group and don't need or care for outsiders; it might
be they've never heard or made lasting contacts with organized
cavers; it might also be that they've had a bad experience or two
with uppity organized cavers and just don't care to associate with them.
In many cases these county cavers are pretty much or completely safe
and knowledgable cavers and many know at least the basics of vertical
work. Those have the training, equipment and experience to be
considered competent vertical cavers. They have read some caving
books in the local library, looked up caving websites, or know some
organized cavers who've caved with them and taught them vertical
techniques. Admittedly, those may not be in the majority, but they do
exist and can be found caving locally on most any weekend in Central
Texas. But as you might expect, a good number--surely way more than
half--are only marginally competent and under-equipped for a lot of
the caving they do. Still, they do it reasonably safely. Most of
these cavers go about their business without every being made known
to us. And, certainly, most are never brought into the sphere of
organized caving. There's a pretty good chance that the guy hurt in
the cave near New Braunfels would fall somewhere within this catagory
of cavers--as well as others.
There is another group that are in the "pot hunter" catagory of
cavers. They know very little about caving or the standard techniques
or equipment and may have never met a caver. They have a different
agenda. They are not caving for caving's sake; they are caving as a
means to some primary end. While a few are looking for
artifacts--pots, points, minerals, bugs, etc--not all of them are.
Still, they have some underlying interest that requires they go into
caves. With some reservations I am required to put non-caving
scientists--archeologist, biologists, geologists, and others of that
sort into this catagory but must point out that it should not be
considered as a disparging placement. There are the "free-lance"
variety of pot hunters who rob graves and whose actions should be
discouraged and then there are the "accredited" variety of pot
hunters who have permits and hire cavers to dig up the cave floor and
rob the graves legally in the name of science. Still, they are not
really cavers but more on the order of occasional users. What happens
in the rest of the cave is not their concern.
Somewhere in the line up we must consider the emergency response
people, some of whom have little or no interest caving as a hobby
(thought some do) but have had extensive training in caving and
vertical equipment and techniques (some of it, thought originally
invented by and for caving, is more advanced than most cavers
realize). Some of these folks turn out to be damned fine cavers and
spend some of their off-duty time running down local cave leads and
checking out rumors. Often the cave is on the property of a friend or
family member and would never have been found otherwise or reported
had it not been for this local caver contact. But it should be noted
that most EMS cavers have traditionally shown little interest in
becoming a part of the organized caving scene--with some notable
exceptions. Their lifestyle, their politics, their job and family and
social situation often precludes them joining the perceived rough and
tumble liberal lifestyle of the most visable members of the organized
caving community. It's fine; they do their part and perform a
valuable service--and with enthusiam--when asked to. I will ask you
to consider, as well, that the fellow hurt in the cave near New
Braunfels could quite likely have been in this catagory. It is
doubtful that the TSA and most organized cavers have no idea who most
of these cavers are unless they are also cavers in the rescue
oriented circles.
Back in the mid-90s, whilst I was managing the databases of both the
TSA and the TCR I saw a great opportunity to identify most of the
past and (then) present cavers in Texas--active and inactive, of
course) and to get the TSA to actually do what it's chartered to
do--bring the cavers of Texas together for their common good of caves
and caving--which encompasses various enumerated pursuits. As most of
the TSA members were TCR attendees as well, I combined the databases
and came up with a list comprising about 1200 cavers. I liberally
assumed that their may be another 300 that I had no knowledge of.
From all that information I soon got to considering how many cavers
(or psuedo-cavers) would have to be added if I'd had access to every
Grotto membership roster for every year since their club had been
started. Based on the rosters of several Grottos I had access to I
figured that several thousand people had been introduced to caving in
Texas over the years and that a good many of them would still be
caving if they'd been more vigorously welcomed into the fold and kept
abreast of what was going on. That may have been hard to do at a time
when only paper CAVERs were being printed and CAVER distribution was
restricted to dues paying members. Today the situation has changed.
It has long been my contention that the TSA has never done enough to
contact and attract most of the cavers in Texas--most of whom come
from these above catagories which I've briefly and incompletely
described. Instead, the TSA has become an introverted little clique
interested mostly in the trivialities of running their own little
clique. That includes an overly possessive grasp on The TEXAS CAVER.
We can now reach damned near ALL the cavers in Texas--at no cost
whatsoever!--through the miracle of the internet. And we should. A
digital copy of each TEXAS CAVER should be available for downloading
for any caver in Texas, no matter what, if any, affiliation they may
or may not have with any other caver or caver organization or which
of the catagories they may be in. Then it will be performing a
service that will eventually be of benefit to a much larger number of
Texas cavers and, ultimately, the Texas caving community as a whole.
There is strength in numbers. Then that caver that fell into the cave
near New Braunfels would be known to us and we to him--as well as his
companion who would have rapidly been in contact with us. We would
most likely know the name of the cave and not be flailing around for
answers unavailable in the Zeitung and its newsworthy shortcomings.
Then we would be getting somewhere and be worthy of the name
"organized cavers".
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gill,
Great Essay.
Preston
------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gill Ediger" <gi...@worldnet.att.net>
To: <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:51 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Cave accident (long and involved diatribe)
At 06:02 PM 12/11/2008, Matt Turner wrote:
Seriously though do we know this person? It says they where looking for
caves so I would think so.
There's always the chance, Matt, that some caver somewhere knows him. But
there is sometimes a concept that all cavers know each other. They think
that about black people and Asians and Baptists and Boy Scouts and a lot
of other groups--that they all know each other. It just ain't true.
There are a whole lot of people out there who can ligitimately be called
cavers whom most of us "organized cavers" have never heard of and will
never come across. There are several catagories of them and I'm not even
gonna try to get started on them all, but will give you a couple of
examples.
Even the concept of "organized cavers" is a bit nebulous. They are
generally the ones that can be identified as belonging to or participating
in the activities of some sort of caving club--local Grottos, state or
regional organizations such as the TSA, or the NSS. Projects (CBSP, AMCS,
PEP) and surveys (TSS) and conservation groups like the TCC or TCMA also
count. And then there are the friends and camp followers of the active
cavers in that group. They may never enter a cave but they are an
important part of our "organized caver" social family. In most cases they
go caving enough to consider themselves cavers and we generally recognize
them as such. And they know enough to call a rescue should one be needed.
Now then, there is another nebulous group that I call "county cavers".
They consist mainly of local (read small town, Hill Country kids--or older
kids) who like caving but don't give a damn (for any of various reasons)
for organized cavers. It might be the time and distance required to go to
meetings; it might be that they have their own tight little group and
don't need or care for outsiders; it might be they've never heard or made
lasting contacts with organized cavers; it might also be that they've had
a bad experience or two with uppity organized cavers and just don't care
to associate with them.
In many cases these county cavers are pretty much or completely safe and
knowledgable cavers and many know at least the basics of vertical work.
Those have the training, equipment and experience to be considered
competent vertical cavers. They have read some caving books in the local
library, looked up caving websites, or know some organized cavers who've
caved with them and taught them vertical techniques. Admittedly, those may
not be in the majority, but they do exist and can be found caving locally
on most any weekend in Central Texas. But as you might expect, a good
number--surely way more than half--are only marginally competent and
under-equipped for a lot of the caving they do. Still, they do it
reasonably safely. Most of these cavers go about their business without
every being made known to us. And, certainly, most are never brought into
the sphere of organized caving. There's a pretty good chance that the guy
hurt in the cave near New Braunfels would fall somewhere within this
catagory of cavers--as well as others.
There is another group that are in the "pot hunter" catagory of cavers.
They know very little about caving or the standard techniques or equipment
and may have never met a caver. They have a different agenda. They are not
caving for caving's sake; they are caving as a means to some primary end.
While a few are looking for artifacts--pots, points, minerals, bugs,
etc--not all of them are. Still, they have some underlying interest that
requires they go into caves. With some reservations I am required to put
non-caving scientists--archeologist, biologists, geologists, and others of
that sort into this catagory but must point out that it should not be
considered as a disparging placement. There are the "free-lance" variety
of pot hunters who rob graves and whose actions should be discouraged and
then there are the "accredited" variety of pot hunters who have permits
and hire cavers to dig up the cave floor and rob the graves legally in the
name of science. Still, they are not really cavers but more on the order
of occasional users. What happens in the rest of the cave is not their
concern.
Somewhere in the line up we must consider the emergency response people,
some of whom have little or no interest caving as a hobby (thought some
do) but have had extensive training in caving and vertical equipment and
techniques (some of it, thought originally invented by and for caving, is
more advanced than most cavers realize). Some of these folks turn out to
be damned fine cavers and spend some of their off-duty time running down
local cave leads and checking out rumors. Often the cave is on the
property of a friend or family member and would never have been found
otherwise or reported had it not been for this local caver contact. But it
should be noted that most EMS cavers have traditionally shown little
interest in becoming a part of the organized caving scene--with some
notable exceptions. Their lifestyle, their politics, their job and family
and social situation often precludes them joining the perceived rough and
tumble liberal lifestyle of the most visable members of the organized
caving community. It's fine; they do their part and perform a valuable
service--and with enthusiam--when asked to. I will ask you to consider, as
well, that the fellow hurt in the cave near New Braunfels could quite
likely have been in this catagory. It is doubtful that the TSA and most
organized cavers have no idea who most of these cavers are unless they are
also cavers in the rescue oriented circles.
Back in the mid-90s, whilst I was managing the databases of both the TSA
and the TCR I saw a great opportunity to identify most of the past and
(then) present cavers in Texas--active and inactive, of course) and to get
the TSA to actually do what it's chartered to do--bring the cavers of
Texas together for their common good of caves and caving--which
encompasses various enumerated pursuits. As most of the TSA members were
TCR attendees as well, I combined the databases and came up with a list
comprising about 1200 cavers. I liberally assumed that their may be
another 300 that I had no knowledge of. From all that information I soon
got to considering how many cavers (or psuedo-cavers) would have to be
added if I'd had access to every Grotto membership roster for every year
since their club had been started. Based on the rosters of several Grottos
I had access to I figured that several thousand people had been introduced
to caving in Texas over the years and that a good many of them would still
be caving if they'd been more vigorously welcomed into the fold and kept
abreast of what was going on. That may have been hard to do at a time when
only paper CAVERs were being printed and CAVER distribution was restricted
to dues paying members. Today the situation has changed.
It has long been my contention that the TSA has never done enough to
contact and attract most of the cavers in Texas--most of whom come from
these above catagories which I've briefly and incompletely described.
Instead, the TSA has become an introverted little clique interested mostly
in the trivialities of running their own little clique. That includes an
overly possessive grasp on The TEXAS CAVER. We can now reach damned near
ALL the cavers in Texas--at no cost whatsoever!--through the miracle of
the internet. And we should. A digital copy of each TEXAS CAVER should be
available for downloading for any caver in Texas, no matter what, if any,
affiliation they may or may not have with any other caver or caver
organization or which of the catagories they may be in. Then it will be
performing a service that will eventually be of benefit to a much larger
number of Texas cavers and, ultimately, the Texas caving community as a
whole. There is strength in numbers. Then that caver that fell into the
cave near New Braunfels would be known to us and we to him--as well as his
companion who would have rapidly been in contact with us. We would most
likely know the name of the cave and not be flailing around for answers
unavailable in the Zeitung and its newsworthy shortcomings. Then we would
be getting somewhere and be worthy of the name "organized cavers".
--Ediger
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Date: 12/11/2008 8:36 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shades of Joe Hill..
“Don't waste any time mourning - organize!”
T.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gill Ediger <gi...@worldnet.att.net>
>Sent: Dec 11, 2008 9:51 PM
>To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Subject: [Texascavers] Cave accident (long and involved diatribe)
>
>At 06:02 PM 12/11/2008, Matt Turner wrote:
>>Seriously though do we know this person? It says they where looking
>>for caves so I would think so.
>
>There's always the chance, Matt, that some caver somewhere knows him.
>But there is sometimes a concept that all cavers know each other.
>They think that about black people and Asians and Baptists and Boy
>Scouts and a lot of other groups--that they all know each other. It
>just ain't true.
>
>There are a whole lot of people out there who can ligitimately be
>called cavers whom most of us "organized cavers" have never heard of
>and will never come across. There are several catagories of them and
>I'm not even gonna try to get started on them all, but will give you
>a couple of examples.
>
>Even the concept of "organized cavers" is a bit nebulous. They are
>generally the ones that can be identified as belonging to or
>participating in the activities of some sort of caving club--local
>Grottos, state or regional organizations such as the TSA, or the NSS.
>Projects (CBSP, AMCS, PEP) and surveys (TSS) and conservation groups
>like the TCC or TCMA also count. And then there are the friends and
>camp followers of the active cavers in that group. They may never
>enter a cave but they are an important part of our "organized caver"
>social family. In most cases they go caving enough to consider
>themselves cavers and we generally recognize them as such. And they
>know enough to call a rescue should one be needed.
>
>Now then, there is another nebulous group that I call "county
>cavers". They consist mainly of local (read small town, Hill Country
>kids--or older kids) who like caving but don't give a damn (for any
>of various reasons) for organized cavers. It might be the time and
>distance required to go to meetings; it might be that they have their
>own tight little group and don't need or care for outsiders; it might
>be they've never heard or made lasting contacts with organized
>cavers; it might also be that they've had a bad experience or two
>with uppity organized cavers and just don't care to associate with them.
>
>In many cases these county cavers are pretty much or completely safe
>and knowledgable cavers and many know at least the basics of vertical
>work. Those have the training, equipment and experience to be
>considered competent vertical cavers. They have read some caving
>books in the local library, looked up caving websites, or know some
>organized cavers who've caved with them and taught them vertical
>techniques. Admittedly, those may not be in the majority, but they do
>exist and can be found caving locally on most any weekend in Central
>Texas. But as you might expect, a good number--surely way more than
>half--are only marginally competent and under-equipped for a lot of
>the caving they do. Still, they do it reasonably safely. Most of
>these cavers go about their business without every being made known
>to us. And, certainly, most are never brought into the sphere of
>organized caving. There's a pretty good chance that the guy hurt in
>the cave near New Braunfels would fall somewhere within this catagory
>of cavers--as well as others.
>
>There is another group that are in the "pot hunter" catagory of
>cavers. They know very little about caving or the standard techniques
>or equipment and may have never met a caver. They have a different
>agenda. They are not caving for caving's sake; they are caving as a
>means to some primary end. While a few are looking for
>artifacts--pots, points, minerals, bugs, etc--not all of them are.
>Still, they have some underlying interest that requires they go into
>caves. With some reservations I am required to put non-caving
>scientists--archeologist, biologists, geologists, and others of that
>sort into this catagory but must point out that it should not be
>considered as a disparging placement. There are the "free-lance"
>variety of pot hunters who rob graves and whose actions should be
>discouraged and then there are the "accredited" variety of pot
>hunters who have permits and hire cavers to dig up the cave floor and
>rob the graves legally in the name of science. Still, they are not
>really cavers but more on the order of occasional users. What happens
>in the rest of the cave is not their concern.
>
>Somewhere in the line up we must consider the emergency response
>people, some of whom have little or no interest caving as a hobby
>(thought some do) but have had extensive training in caving and
>vertical equipment and techniques (some of it, thought originally
>invented by and for caving, is more advanced than most cavers
>realize). Some of these folks turn out to be damned fine cavers and
>spend some of their off-duty time running down local cave leads and
>checking out rumors. Often the cave is on the property of a friend or
>family member and would never have been found otherwise or reported
>had it not been for this local caver contact. But it should be noted
>that most EMS cavers have traditionally shown little interest in
>becoming a part of the organized caving scene--with some notable
>exceptions. Their lifestyle, their politics, their job and family and
>social situation often precludes them joining the perceived rough and
>tumble liberal lifestyle of the most visable members of the organized
>caving community. It's fine; they do their part and perform a
>valuable service--and with enthusiam--when asked to. I will ask you
>to consider, as well, that the fellow hurt in the cave near New
>Braunfels could quite likely have been in this catagory. It is
>doubtful that the TSA and most organized cavers have no idea who most
>of these cavers are unless they are also cavers in the rescue
>oriented circles.
>
>Back in the mid-90s, whilst I was managing the databases of both the
>TSA and the TCR I saw a great opportunity to identify most of the
>past and (then) present cavers in Texas--active and inactive, of
>course) and to get the TSA to actually do what it's chartered to
>do--bring the cavers of Texas together for their common good of caves
>and caving--which encompasses various enumerated pursuits. As most of
>the TSA members were TCR attendees as well, I combined the databases
>and came up with a list comprising about 1200 cavers. I liberally
>assumed that their may be another 300 that I had no knowledge of.
> From all that information I soon got to considering how many cavers
>(or psuedo-cavers) would have to be added if I'd had access to every
>Grotto membership roster for every year since their club had been
>started. Based on the rosters of several Grottos I had access to I
>figured that several thousand people had been introduced to caving in
>Texas over the years and that a good many of them would still be
>caving if they'd been more vigorously welcomed into the fold and kept
>abreast of what was going on. That may have been hard to do at a time
>when only paper CAVERs were being printed and CAVER distribution was
>restricted to dues paying members. Today the situation has changed.
>
>It has long been my contention that the TSA has never done enough to
>contact and attract most of the cavers in Texas--most of whom come
>from these above catagories which I've briefly and incompletely
>described. Instead, the TSA has become an introverted little clique
>interested mostly in the trivialities of running their own little
>clique. That includes an overly possessive grasp on The TEXAS CAVER.
>We can now reach damned near ALL the cavers in Texas--at no cost
>whatsoever!--through the miracle of the internet. And we should. A
>digital copy of each TEXAS CAVER should be available for downloading
>for any caver in Texas, no matter what, if any, affiliation they may
>or may not have with any other caver or caver organization or which
>of the catagories they may be in. Then it will be performing a
>service that will eventually be of benefit to a much larger number of
>Texas cavers and, ultimately, the Texas caving community as a whole.
>There is strength in numbers. Then that caver that fell into the cave
>near New Braunfels would be known to us and we to him--as well as his
>companion who would have rapidly been in contact with us. We would
>most likely know the name of the cave and not be flailing around for
>answers unavailable in the Zeitung and its newsworthy shortcomings.
>Then we would be getting somewhere and be worthy of the name
>"organized cavers".
>
>--Ediger
>
>
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Gill,
Your excellent response to the comment by Matt included a perfect description
(copied below) of how a friend and I began caving in Panama City, Florida (250
miles from the nearest NSS Grotto in existence then) in 1967. Clark Whitehorn
and I knew there were caves about 50 miles north of town thanks to the
existence of Florida Caverns State Park in Marianna. But we were just
exploring the countryside in Jackson County (thanks to newly-minted drivers'
licenses and access to Clark's mother's station wagon) when we actually
stumbled onto a small cave in a long-abandoned limestone quarry. We had one
flashlight with us, and had the predictable idiot result (light failure) when
we were just out of the twilight zone. Fortunately, the cave was a single
crawl with no side passages, so we made our way out with no problem.
But the incident did put the fear of [Oztotl?] in us, and we scampered off to
the Public Library, just as you describe, to research safe and responsible
caving techniques. We had soon read several books, mail-ordered Justrite
carbide lamps from an outfitter, acquired hard hats, etc. We caved cautiously
in the Park (where many undeveloped caves were then open) and on private land.
We encountered 'real' cavers in one of the park caves, and got the predictable
(and justified) lecture on cave conservation, and how they would kick our
teenaged butts if we damaged anything. But we had already picked up on that
through our readings and through our general environmentally positive attitude
engendered by Boy Scouts and herptile-friendly Clark's readings of Archie Carr
and other pioneer ecologist and environmentalists. It may have been through
this group or independent research that we found out about the Florida
Speleological Society, the Grotto at the University of Florida that had already
existed for 15 years or so at that time.
We contacted members, and were invited to join them on a trip to the very large
and generally wonderful Climax Cave in southwestern Georgia. We brought along
NSS applications to that we could get endorsement signatures and apply for
membership. We were blown away by the trip (our first BIG cave), but the guy
who was an NSS member and offered to sign our application had a car wreck (not
serious) on the way up, and we didn't get signatures as a consequence.
I went on to the University of Florida in the Fall of 1968, and immediately
joined the Florida Speleological Society. But, like many members of student
grottos back then, I just read the club library's NSS News, and didn't become
and NSS member until I had to (in 1970) to hold a grotto office. I'm sure my
NSS number would be a thousand or so lower if the Climax application had come
off.
Anyway, you did a great job of describing caving on the fringes of the
'organized' world or beyond, Gill.
Roger Moore
In a message dated 12/11/08 20:52:00 Central Standard Time,
gi...@worldnet.att.net writes:
In many cases these county cavers are pretty much or completely safe
and knowledgable cavers and many know at least the basics of vertical
work. Those have the training, equipment and experience to be
considered competent vertical cavers. They have read some caving
books in the local library, looked up caving websites, or know some
organized cavers who've caved with them and taught them vertical
techniques.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 07:31 PM 12/11/2008, David wrote:
I forgot to mention that he climbed the Matterhorn.
He also accompanied us in 1977 on the first
through trip of the Purificacíon System, a 21 hour trip--at the age of 56.
--Ediger
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http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/12/12/endangered.species/index.html
Joe
j...@oztotl.com
Sent while mobile
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--- Begin Message ---
this may interest the many who think about 'mobility miles'
Nancy
December 10, 2008
Op-Ed Columnist
<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/opinion/10friedman.html?hp>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/opinion/10friedman.html?hp
While Detroit Slept
By
<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/thomaslfriedman/index.html?inline=nyt-per>THOMAS
L. FRIEDMAN
As I think about our bailing out Detroit, I cant
help but reflect on what, in my view, is the most
important rule of business in todays integrated
and digitized global market, where knowledge and
innovation tools are so widely distributed. Its
this: Whatever can be done, will be done. The
only question is will it be done by you or to
you. Just dont think it wont be done. If you
have an idea in Detroit or Tennessee, promise me
that youll pursue it, because someone in Denmark
or Tel Aviv will do so a second later.
Why do I bring this up? Because someone in the
mobility business in Denmark and Tel Aviv is
already developing a real-world alternative to
Detroits business model. I dont know if this
alternative to gasoline-powered cars will work,
but I do know that it can be done and Detroit
isnt doing it. And therefore it will be done,
and eventually, I bet, it will be done profitably.
And when it is, our bailout of Detroit will be
remembered as the equivalent of pouring billions
of dollars of taxpayer money into the
mail-order-catalogue business on the eve of the
birth of eBay. It will be remembered as pouring
billions of dollars into the CD music business on
the eve of the birth of the iPod and iTunes. It
will be remembered as pouring billions of dollars
into a book-store chain on the eve of the birth
of Amazon.com and the Kindle. It will be
remembered as pouring billions of dollars into
improving typewriters on the eve of the birth of
the PC and the Internet.
What business model am I talking about? It is
Shai Agassis electric car network company,
called Better Place. Just last week, the company,
based in Palo Alto, Calif., announced a
partnership with the state of Hawaii to road test
its business plan there after already inking
similar deals with Israel, Australia, the San
Francisco Bay area and, yes, Denmark.
The Better Place electric car charging system
involves generating electrons from as much
renewable energy such as wind and solar as
possible and then feeding those clean electrons
into a national electric car charging
infrastructure. This consists of electricity
charging spots with plug-in outlets the first
pilots were opened in Israel this week plus
battery-exchange stations all over the respective
country. The whole system is then coordinated by
a service control center that integrates and does
the billing.
Under the Better Place model, consumers can
either buy or lease an electric car from the
French automaker Renault or Japanese companies
like Nissan (General Motors snubbed Agassi) and
then buy miles on their electric car batteries
from Better Place the way you now buy an Apple
cellphone and the minutes from AT&T. That way
Better Place, or any car company that partners
with it, benefits from each mile you drive. G.M.
sells cars. Better Place is selling mobility
miles.
The first Renault and Nissan electric cars are
scheduled to hit Denmark and Israel in 2011, when
the whole system should be up and running. On
Tuesday, Japans Ministry of Environment invited
Better Place to join the first government-led
electric car project along with Honda, Mitsubishi
and Subaru. Better Place was the only foreign
company invited to participate, working with
Japans leading auto companies, to build a
battery swap station for electric cars in
Yokohama, the Detroit of Japan.
What I find exciting about Better Place is that
it is building a car company off the new
industrial platform of the 21st century, not the
one from the 20th the exact same way that Steve
Jobs did to overturn the music business. What did
Apple understand first? One, that todays
technology platform would allow anyone with a
computer to record music. Two, that the Internet
and MP3 players would allow anyone to transfer
music in digital form to anyone else. You
wouldnt need CDs or record companies anymore.
Apple simply took all those innovations and
integrated them into a single music-generating,
purchasing and listening system that completely
disrupted the music business.
What Agassi, the founder of Better Place, is
saying is that there is a new way to generate
mobility, not just music, using the same
platform. It just takes the right kind of auto
battery the iPod in this story and the right
kind of national plug-in network the iTunes
store to make the business model work for
electric cars at six cents a mile. The average
American is paying today around 12 cents a mile
for gasoline transportation, which also adds to
global warming and strengthens petro-dictators.
Do not expect this innovation to come out of
Detroit. Remember, in 1908, the Ford Model-T got
better mileage 25 miles per gallon than many
Ford, G.M. and Chrysler models made in 2008. But
dont be surprised when it comes out of somewhere
else. It can be done. It will be done. If we miss
the chance to win the race for Car 2.0 because we
keep mindlessly bailing out Car 1.0, there will
be no one to blame more than Detroits new
shareholders: we the taxpayers.
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