All of the collective caver minds can solve almost any cave problem/question especially if it is in Texas
________________________________ From: tra...@oztotl.com [mailto:tra...@oztotl.com] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 4:17 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Explore a cave? Ladder Cave, imagine that. I was uncertain about the allegations about the cave going under the river, hence what prompted me to verify. Too bad... Sorry to get anyone's hopes up... Sometimes the simplest things are the hardest to remember :-) Ladder Cave it is! George is it in the file? Should be from the KCCP days.. On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Amanda Scott <mamaarsc...@gmail.com<mailto:mamaarsc...@gmail.com>> wrote: I think the name of the cave is drum roll please............. LADDER CAVE. If my memory serves me correctly. On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Joe Ranzau <jran...@gmail.com<mailto:jran...@gmail.com>> wrote: The cave you are thinking of is on the Anderson ranch just north of CWAN. The name is escaping me... Maybe Karen, Blair or Allen remembers... Emory was the ranch hand. To the best of my knowledge it doesn't go under the Guad. Not deep or long enough. Only used one extension ladder (a long one) to get down. But it did go for quite a ways and got muddy after a keyhole. George correct me if I'm wrong but a cave would need to drop at least 100' to get under the Guad from up where CWAN, Alzafar, Golden Fawn, Spring Creek, Phillip's water cave etc are located. Joe j...@oztotl.com<mailto:j...@oztotl.com> Sent while mobile On Jul 11, 2008, at 3:24 PM, "George Veni" <gv...@warpdriveonline.com<mailto:gv...@warpdriveonline.com>> wrote: Travis, While I've moved to New Mexico, I continue for the time being to maintain the TSS files for Kendall County (as well as Bexar and Comal). No cave in the files is reported to extend under the Guadalupe River. Can you or Joe Ranzau (who I know is neck-deep in wedding preparations and other matters) send me more information on the cave you mentioned below. Are you sure it wasn't Cricket Cave, which is north of CWAN and on CWAN property? If the cave is in the database, I'll get you more information on it. If it is new to the database, then Texas is officially one cave richer. On the question of air-filled caves extending under rivers, the potential for it depends on the elevation of the water table. Generally speaking, a river is the surface expression and extension of the groundwater table. By definition, all spaces below the water table are filled with water. The Guadalupe River is one such stream and so no air-filled caves should exist below it. However, many streams have "losing" reaches where the water table is below the stream bed and the streams lose their flow the further they extend over such areas, often going completely dry. Most of the streams that extend across the Edwards Aquifer Recharge Zone are losing streams and places where you can find caves below stream beds. I can think of several examples. While karst aquifers are known to rapidly transmit water underground, they are also good at perching water for short distances (relative to the overall scheme of things). These aquifers are triple permeability (the measure of how fast water flows through rock or soil) systems. The bedrock or matrix permeability transmits water at rates of meters per thousands of years and provides the bulk surface on which losing streams flow. Significant water loss in losing streams occurs in fracture permeability, where groundwater may be months or decades old, and in conduit permeability. Hydrologically, conduits are generally any continuous cavity more than about 15 mm in diameter or width. Caves are just big conduits that people can enter. In terms of how water flows, its chemistry, ability to transport sediment and provide habitat to critters, and vulnerability to contamination, conduits and caves are largely indistinguishable. And I don't think I need to describe to cavers how fast water can move in caves. George From: tra...@oztotl.com<mailto:tra...@oztotl.com> [mailto:tra...@oztotl.com] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:50 AM To: <mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com> Texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: Explore a cave? I seem to recall going into a cave north of CWAN back in the day, maybe it was called Chimney Cave or something? It was in a definite karst area (no soil) and had a ladder going down into the entrance pit. Beyond the entrance room, it was a series of stoop walking passages with places to stand up here and there. Anyways, I was told it went directly under the Guadalupe River near it's terminus, but I have no idea if that is true.. There were mostly SA folks (I can remember Ranzau being there as a mere high school senior just getting his feet wet in the caving world), Spencer Woods and Amanda and I. Anyways, was this ever confirmed by a survey? TS (I think I even took a video camera and recorded the cave from entrance to near the end, need to find that..) I also remember coming out of the cave one night late and becoming COMPLETELY lost with fading lights and no batteries. About the time we resolved to just sleep on the ground, we stumbled onto the trail. We slept good in the owners spare quarters with the heater that night. Actually, there are a number of caves in various places where you can walk or crawl under active flowing streams. Blackhouse Mountain Cave in Tennessee is a great example as one of the passages in this multi-mile long cave goes completely under a flowing stream and has an entrance on both sides of the creek. Geary
