I'm staying out of the religious controversy though I agree with the concept of not dissing another persons beliefs. I guess some of the ultra religious could consider what I'm about to say as "bearing witness!" I have observed some very fast formation growth in an area where the soil appears to be acidic and by actual test has a fairly high concentration of CO2. The growth occurred during a period of heavy rain and soil saturation, pretty much like we're having now. Back in the "early days" of the CBSP project, we were doing a lot of CO2 testing, TPWD furnished the equipment, an Oxygen meter and Draeger device with lots of CO2 tubes. Ed Young got this wild idea to dig a little core hole about a foot deep, cover it and come back in a couple of hours with the Draeger and test the CO2. There were usually concentrations of 2-3%. 1990 was a year of extremely heavy rain and the soil was well saturated. We got flooded several times and couldn't get off the park until flood water receded. In Gorman Cave, from one month to the next some small formations had grown 1/8-1/4" in length. Some of the old discolored flowstone had new white growth on top. We didn't do actual measurements of the formations or the thickness of the flowstone growth but it was easy to observe. I'm not scientist enough to analyze all the variables but certain conditions apparently can make for pretty fast formation growth. If you've ever been sewerlunking, you'll see some nice little flowstone formations and even a few soda straws that have grown in the last 30 years since that was about how old the drain was. Butch
-----Original Message----- From: Brian Riordan [mailto:riordan.br...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:39 AM To: Don Cooper Cc: Texas Cavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [Bat "Caught" by Stalactite] Once again I'm going to have to question the wisdom in mocking religion on this listserve... So yes, caves, in the right conditions, can form far more quickly than sometimes stated as uniform. Just as a private company can build a road 10 times quicker than the state- it varies with conditions... significantly. In the same way, it can take thousands of years to develope a foot of soil- or, it can take 6 hours for a volcano or flood to deposit 15 feet of strata- once again, not a good indicator of age. Carbon dating, or carbon-14 isotope is also a funny method. It assumes that millions of years ago (assuming that the earth existed then) there was exactly the same amount of C-14 in the atmosphere, otherwise it would completely throw off the calibration of the instruments used to carbon date things... In evolutionary theory, however, the earth had a DRASTICALLY different atmosphere millions of years ago. Convenient assumption once again. Evolution also deviates from scientific theory because it ignores principals we see every day, like the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The only deviation from the 2nd law ever seen is only in paper- as the theory of evolution. Yes, things change. But the real question comes down to can these changes describe the origin of life? Logic says no. Thermodynamics says no. Probability says no. Not only in the way that it is a phenomenally irresponsible statement to say "Just ignore everything we've seen and measured, and accept that With Enough Time it'll just happen", and probably the most unscientific thing you could say. In this way evolution is less a science than saying that someone created it. Funny how an all but amorphous piece of obsidian can be said to have been made by man, because the coincidences of some chips in it all in the same direction is too much of a coincidence, while the creature analyzing it is accepted as being a product of chance. Oxymoron. "Science" (what an abused word THAT is) is used too much when talking about things we describe. A significant majority of our equations are empirically based. It's just a method used to mathematically describe what we see. It doesn't mean we know how or why it happens. I could watch a magician performing the same trick over and over and write an equation describing it and call it science. But it's only pattern recognition and every time that trick is performed, regardless of a new equation and theory describing it, could be just that: magic. Not that it is, but science can't disprove it. I was once probbing my religious beliefs- following different leads and weighing the validity of different points of view, and I ended up talking to my friend Rhinehardt about it. I, frustrated, said, "If the israelites really saw a plague of frogs, then locusts, then water turning to blood, then night in the middle of the day, then first born children dying in egypt, then the Red Sea parting, then a pillar of cloud guiding them by day, and a pillar of fire by night, how could they make an idol after waiting for Moses? Either it's a lie or God wasted a lot of energy on some dumbasses." Rhinehardt (who I've forgotten to mention, is blind from birth) paused, "Look up in the sky. What do you see?" "Clouds... the sky" "What color are they, describe them" I described the colors and shapes. He followed up with, "Ok, so what do you do for fun?" "I draw, I ride my motorcycle, I go to the movies" He paused again "I've never seen a movie, I'll never drive any vehicle, I have no idea at all what colors are, I can't tell if a piece of paper is covered with writing or blank and it boggles my mind that you can sense something so far away. You see miracles every day, but you're always looking for something more. I'd say people today are just as much the 'dumbasses' they were back then. Extinct rivers, people, cities and documents have been found with new technology, systematically scratching items of the list of things people complain the Bible is wrong about. That's probably why it's used for archaeology today. Just watching the trend, I'd personally be leery about being sarcastic to hyperbolic proportions about discovering an item on the same list of other things that HAVE been discovered. I think "scientists" or people claiming (ignorantly) science are just as self-righteous as some christians as if they have it all figured out. For the same reasons self-righteous, accusing Christians are wrong to believe in a god because they "can't handle getting through life without an imaginary friend to hold their hand", self-righteous scientists or those believing "science" are wrong to feng shui facts and ignore others to appear to have all the answers when they have precious few. While religiously based, I hope this came across more of a rebutal showing a scientific viewpoint of creationist theory than an argument if there is a god or not. If you read this far- congrats, you're interested in your origins and quite possibly your future or at least another side of an argument. But almost as importantly, writing all that crap stopped my slappin' hand stopped twitching. Until the next religiously charged thread, -B On 7/17/07, Don Cooper <HYPERLINK "mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com"wavyca...@gmail.com> wrote: WOW! I guess everything in the bible is correct then! So the oldest caves are only 4000 years old, God Created Adam and Eve with magic, evolution is bunk and Noah's Ark WAS NOT a increadably far fetched fable...... Who Knew? -WaV On 7/17/07, Don Arburn <HYPERLINK "mailto:donarb...@mac.com"; \ndonarb...@mac.com> wrote: HYPERLINK "http://www.bible.ca/tracks/speleotherms-stalagmites-stalactites.htm"; \nhttp://www.bible.ca/tracks/speleotherms-stalagmites-stalactites.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our website: HYPERLINK "http://texascavers.com/"; \nhttp://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: HYPERLINK "mailto:texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com"; \ntexascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: HYPERLINK "mailto:texascavers-h...@texascavers.com"; \ntexascavers-h...@texascavers.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/904 - Release Date: 7/16/2007 5:42 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/904 - Release Date: 7/16/2007 5:42 PM
