But Ft. Stanton Cave in NM is definitely a place to be careful. Far south on Snowy River was being pushed and mapped in 2014, and by August it began flooding. Midnight Junction camp hasn't seen cavers since then, although we are hoping the present drying trend remains at least until fall there.
Sent from BlueMail On Jul 3, 2018, 6:38 PM, at 6:38 PM, Peter Jones <pjca...@gwi.net> wrote: >Having been a caver in the Guads for 49 years, I can say that there >have not been a lot of issues of flooding of our caves to the point >where they might cause some serious problems. That does not mean that >the caves won’t flood, just that the number that are likely to are >pretty limited. Vanishing River Cave, which drains many square miles >of canyons upstream from its location, would certainly be considered a >no-entry cave during flooding season. I’ve been in Carlsbad (town) >several times when there have been real frog strangling rain and the >normally empty river beds have been boiling with torrents of rushing >water. Had to even drive up to McCollum’s Ranch in a torrential >downpour to pick up a friend who decided to hike the Guadalupe Ridge >Trail from the Lookout Tower to Carlsbad Caverns National Park and got >lost somewhere around Putman Cabin and had to double back that same >night, arriving at the Lookout Tower Cabin around 3 AM, totally >drenched to the bone. He hiked down the following day and I met up >with him just before McCollum’s Ranch to drive him back into town. The >flooding was unbelievable!! Other caves that lie in the bottom of >major drainages could certainly be a major problem for cavers who don’t >pay attention to the weather. A lot of the gyp caves and those like >Spider Cave could be a real problem. I also remember the day that I >first dropped into Andy’s Cave with Tom Meador into virgin cave and >came back to the entrance a couple of hours later to a waterfall >pouring down the entrance drop and beginning to fill the canyon side of >the 65’ deep drop. It ended after the rain stopped, but it was >certainly a wet climb out of there after that torrential event. > >Just a reminder that we should all be careful about rain (and snow in >the winter) when we go caving. > >Peter > > > > > >> On Jul 3, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Geary Schindel ><gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> wrote: >> >> Penny, >> >> Yes, we’re trying to get our message out as most caves don’t respond >to rainfall like this one does. However, we have had our share of rain >induced tragedies and close calls in the US. >> >> I’ve spent a lot of time looking at major rain events and collected >some very interesting hydrograph data on the response of groundwater >levels (and caves) to flooding. Many a day, I’ve walked away from >caving in low lying caves when there is a chance of rain. When I worked >for the NPS in the Mammoth Cave area, we worked a cave where the first >3,000 feet of passage would flood to the ceiling. The entrance was in >the bottom of a large sinkhole that drained an area of about 300 acres. >We watched the weather very carefully. The issue wasn’t when we were >going in but when we came out the next morning. Hopefully, the weather >forecast was accurate and wasn’t a problem. However, before crawling >into the entrance series with the three low sumps, we would get our >lamps charged and headed directly out. >> >> Water and flooding is a serious issue in karst and I’ve always >thought that drowning in a cave would not reflect well on the career of >a karst hydrologist. >> >> Geary Schindel >> gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org >> >> From: Penelope Boston [mailto:penelope.bos...@nmt.edu] >> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:33 PM >> To: Geary Schindel <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> >> Cc: Peter Jones <pjca...@gwi.net>; Lee Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net>; >swrcavers@googlegroups com <swrcav...@googlegroups.com>; Texas Cavers ><Texascavers@texascavers.com>; Sandia Grotto ><sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com> >> Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the >Thai cave >> >> Dear all, >> >> I also hope that this ongoing potential tragedy that we hope becomes >a joyous rescue can be used as a teaching moment. The 25 year old coach >is to be commended for taking his kids on field trips but his obvious >lack of understanding of how caves work in monsoon season is >responsible for the situation. I hope that the international cave >community can use this opportunity to explain the dangers of this >particular instance in that larger context. Not to make caves “scary” >but to explain when caves are and are not likely to be hazardous. >> >> Here’s hoping for the best, >> P >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 3, 2018, at 15:08, Geary Schindel ><gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org <mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> >wrote: >> >> Lee, >> >> I also wanted to say that your feeds are the latest and most up to >date on the situation. Thank you for sharing them. >> >> The NSS has had a number of calls from the media regarding this >issue. I’ve directed calls first to Anmar Mirza who is the National >Coordinator for the National Cave Rescue Commission. I’ve handled any >overflow that Anmar couldn’t get to. Anmar has been pulled in numerous >directions from the media and has done an excellent job. >> >> Couple of points. >> >> The media coverage has actually been pretty good >considering most media doesn’t have an idea what a cave is or about >cave rescues. As the event has gone on, the reports become more >factual. Having worked a similar incident at P-11 Cave in Kentucky in >1984, I can tell you the quality of reporting is much better (See the >July 1984 NSS News for a number of reports on accidents and the P-11 >incident). >> >> The Thai government has poured the resources of the >country behind the search and rescue efforts and have brought in >specialists from around the world. They appear to have done an >outstanding job under very difficult conditions and are investigating >all of their options. The British cave divers are some of the best in >the world and are used to diving in really bad conditions. >> >> A positive outcome of the event is not certain as there are a lot of >issues that can go wrong and the situation and their response is >evolving quickly. >> >> Geary Schindel >> President >> National Speleological Society >> >> >> >> >> From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com <mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com> >[mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com <mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>] >On Behalf Of Peter Jones >> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 AM >> To: Lee Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net <mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> >> Cc: swrcavers@googlegroups com <swrcav...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>; Texas Cavers ><Texascavers@texascavers.com <mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com>>; >Sandia Grotto ><sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com>> >> Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the >Thai cave >> >> Just wanted to say “thank you”, Lee, for keeping us all up to date on >this rescue effort. You’ve made it considerably easier to find the >latest, most important details about the rescue. It certainly is far >from being over with, but at least there is support for the teens and >those who risked their own lives in trying to find them under extremely >dangerous circumstances. I’ve had my own share of rescues and injuries >already and they all pale in comparison to the difficulty of this one. >> >> Peter >> >> >> <image001.jpg> >> >> On Jul 3, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Lee H. Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net ><mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote: >> >> A video depicting great graphics about the rescue: --Lee Skinner >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbyFGQD_ctU&t=9s ><https://youtu.be/jbyFGQD_ctU> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >send an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers ><https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/621341c5-6c58-63cf-f11d-a98d7f2ba1f6%40thuntek.net ><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/621341c5-6c58-63cf-f11d-a98d7f2ba1f6%40thuntek.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout ><https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >send an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers ><https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/7E6B39CD-176A-4C23-AE9C-47F8F30746F9%40gwi.net ><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/7E6B39CD-176A-4C23-AE9C-47F8F30746F9%40gwi.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout ><https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >send an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers ><https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers>. >> To view this discussion on the web >visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/DM6PR05MB4043FED602B8D0D07C422D06D4420%40DM6PR05MB4043.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/DM6PR05MB4043FED602B8D0D07C422D06D4420%40DM6PR05MB4043.namprd05.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout ><https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >send an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com ><mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers ><https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/DM6PR05MB40436D3C855792ABEC9B83A9D4420%40DM6PR05MB4043.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/DM6PR05MB40436D3C855792ABEC9B83A9D4420%40DM6PR05MB4043.namprd05.prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout ><https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers. >To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/5FB9292C-E246-4261-80D5-788A7D95B885%40gwi.net. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Having been a caver in the Guads for 49 years, I can say that there >have not been a lot of issues of flooding of our caves to the point >where they might cause some serious problems. That does not mean that >the caves won’t flood, just that the number that are likely to are >pretty limited. Vanishing River Cave, which drains many square miles >of canyons upstream from its location, would certainly be considered a >no-entry cave during flooding season. I’ve been in Carlsbad (town) >several times when there have been real frog strangling rain and the >normally empty river beds have been boiling with torrents of rushing >water. Had to even drive up to McCollum’s Ranch in a torrential >downpour to pick up a friend who decided to hike the Guadalupe Ridge >Trail from the Lookout Tower to Carlsbad Caverns National Park and got >lost somewhere around Putman Cabin and had to double back that same >night, arriving at the Lookout Tower Cabin around 3 AM, totally >drenched to the bone. He hiked down the following day and I met up >with him just before McCollum’s Ranch to drive him back into town. The >flooding was unbelievable!! Other caves that lie in the bottom of >major drainages could certainly be a major problem for cavers who don’t >pay attention to the weather. A lot of the gyp caves and those like >Spider Cave could be a real problem. I also remember the day that I >first dropped into Andy’s Cave with Tom Meador into virgin cave and >came back to the entrance a couple of hours later to a waterfall >pouring down the entrance drop and beginning to fill the canyon side of >the 65’ deep drop. It ended after the rain stopped, but it was >certainly a wet climb out of there after that torrential event. > > >Just a reminder that we should all be careful about rain (and snow in >the winter) when we go caving. > > >Peter > > > > > > > >On Jul 3, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Geary Schindel < >gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> wrote: > > >Penny, > > > >Yes, we’re trying to get our message out as most caves don’t respond to >rainfall like this one does. However, we have had our share of rain >induced tragedies and close calls in the US. > > > >I’ve spent a lot of time looking at major rain events and collected >some very interesting hydrograph data on the response of groundwater >levels (and caves) to flooding. Many a day, I’ve walked away from >caving in low lying caves when there is a chance of rain. When I worked >for the NPS in the Mammoth Cave area, we worked a cave where the first >3,000 feet of passage would flood to the ceiling. The entrance was in >the bottom of a large sinkhole that drained an area of about 300 acres. >We watched the weather very carefully. The issue wasn’t when we were >going in but when we came out the next morning. Hopefully, the weather >forecast was accurate and wasn’t a problem. However, before crawling >into the entrance series with the three low sumps, we would get our >lamps charged and headed directly out. > > > >Water and flooding is a serious issue in karst and I’ve always thought >that drowning in a cave would not reflect well on the career of a karst >hydrologist. > > > >Geary Schindel > >gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org > > > >From: Penelope Boston [mailto:penelope.bos...@nmt.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:33 PM >To: Geary Schindel <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> >Cc: Peter Jones <pjca...@gwi.net>; Lee Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net>; >swrcavers@googlegroups com <swrcav...@googlegroups.com>; Texas Cavers ><Texascavers@texascavers.com>; Sandia Grotto ><sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com> >Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the >Thai cave > > > >Dear all, > > > >I also hope that this ongoing potential tragedy that we hope becomes a >joyous rescue can be used as a teaching moment. The 25 year old coach >is to be commended for taking his kids on field trips but his obvious >lack of understanding of how caves work in monsoon season is >responsible for the situation. I hope that the international cave >community can use this opportunity to explain the dangers of this >particular instance in that larger context. Not to make caves “scary” >but to explain when caves are and are not likely to be hazardous. > > > >Here’s hoping for the best, > >P > >Sent from my iPhone > > >On Jul 3, 2018, at 15:08, Geary Schindel <gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> >wrote: > >Lee, > > > >I also wanted to say that your feeds are the latest and most up to date >on the situation. Thank you for sharing them. > > > >The NSS has had a number of calls from the media regarding this issue. >I’ve directed calls first to Anmar Mirza who is the National >Coordinator for the National Cave Rescue Commission. I’ve handled any >overflow that Anmar couldn’t get to. Anmar has been pulled in numerous >directions from the media and has done an excellent job. > > > >Couple of points. > > > >The media coverage has actually been pretty good considering most media >doesn’t have an idea what a cave is or about cave rescues. As the event >has gone on, the reports become more factual. Having worked a similar >incident at P-11 Cave in Kentucky in 1984, I can tell you the quality >of reporting is much better (See the July 1984 NSS News for a number of >reports on accidents and the P-11 incident). > > > >The Thai government has poured the resources of the country behind the >search and rescue efforts and have brought in specialists from around >the world. They appear to have done an outstanding job under very >difficult conditions and are investigating all of their options. The >British cave divers are some of the best in the world and are used to >diving in really bad conditions. > > > >A positive outcome of the event is not certain as there are a lot of >issues that can go wrong and the situation and their response is >evolving quickly. > > > >Geary Schindel > >President > >National Speleological Society > > > > > > > > > >From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com [mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com] On >Behalf Of Peter Jones >Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 AM >To: Lee Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net> >Cc: swrcavers@googlegroups com <swrcav...@googlegroups.com>; Texas >Cavers <Texascavers@texascavers.com>; Sandia Grotto ><sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com> >Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the >Thai cave > > > >Just wanted to say “thank you”, Lee, for keeping us all up to date on >this rescue effort. You’ve made it considerably easier to find the >latest, most important details about the rescue. It certainly is far >from being over with, but at least there is support for the teens and >those who risked their own lives in trying to find them under extremely >dangerous circumstances. I’ve had my own share of rescues and injuries >already and they all pale in comparison to the difficulty of this one. > > > >Peter > > > > > ><image001.jpg> > > > >On Jul 3, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Lee H. Skinner <skin...@thuntek.net> >wrote: > > > >A video depicting great graphics about the rescue: --Lee Skinner > > > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbyFGQD_ctU&t=9s > > > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers. >To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/621341c5-6c58-63cf-f11d-a98d7f2ba1f6%40thuntek.net. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers. >To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/7E6B39CD-176A-4C23-AE9C-47F8F30746F9%40gwi.net. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers. >To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/DM6PR05MB4043FED602B8D0D07C422D06D4420%40DM6PR05MB4043.namprd05.prod.outlook.com. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers. >To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/DM6PR05MB40436D3C855792ABEC9B83A9D4420%40DM6PR05MB4043.namprd05.prod.outlook.com. > >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >-- >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" >group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >an email to swrcavers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to swrcav...@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/swrcavers. >To view this discussion on the web visit >https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swrcavers/5FB9292C-E246-4261-80D5-788A7D95B885%40gwi.net. > >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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