The Thai rescue was partly successful because they brought in hundreds of pumps and kept pumping continuously for days. This lowered the water level enough to allow walking in the cave water rather than diving for a significant portion of the route. We can’t pump Snowy River. But perhaps we can divert some of the water going into insurgences to hasten the lowering of the water in Snowy River if cavers are trapped there.
The next couple of years might be a good time to (1) identify as many insurgence points and areas as possible, (2) confirm these with dye or other chemical tracing (if necessary), (3) plan where the berms and diversion banks would need to be placed in Eagle Creek and Little Creek, (3) work with the relevant stakeholders (Upper Hondo Soil & Water Conservation District, BLM, USFS, Village of Alto, etc.) and get pre-approval for creek diversion in the event of a cave rescue incident, (4) identify where the earth-moving equipment would come from (and who would initially pay for it), and (5) develop hydrological models that would predict how long it would take Snowy River water to lower if the creeks are diverted around insurgence areas. -Ron Lipinski From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com [mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of J Lyles Sent: Friday, July 06, 2018 10:47 AM To: Lee Skinner Cc: Pete Lindsley; Peter Jones; Geary Schindel; Penelope Boston; N E W L I S T Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society; Texascavers; Sandia Grotto Subject: Re: [Sandia Grotto]: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave Yes, it would silt up quickly to low visibility but is is straightforward and not a narrow passage. The other two regions that would scare me are the long low crawl from SRS 102-112 or so, often nicknamed Crawl from Hell. This probably would just fill wall to wall with a headspace. In an emergency we wouldn't be concerned about touching the ceiling. The series of real sumps from after Return to Snowy River to about SRS150 are of concern because there are some constrictions for crawling, in between deep basins. We have seen evidence that the floods touched ceiling here last time, and flagging was coated in calcite. On Jul 6, 2018, at 12:00 AM, "Lee H. Skinner" <skin...@thuntek.net<mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote: does anyone know if Mud Lizard could be negotiated easily by cave divers in case of a rescue? lee Skinner On 7/5/2018 12:12 PM, Pete Lindsley wrote: In Fort Stanton Cave the Aug 2014 team found that the water was very slowly flowing towards them when they were about halfway to MJ, and there was no danger here. It took about a month for the flow to reach Turtle Junction, an easy mile from the entrance. We may be able to determine if the Mud Lizard (~2.4 miles from the entrance) sumps during heavy flows, once we exchange the water loggers at this critical point. But if the area gets another storm like Hurricane Dolly, plus with the removal of vegetation following the Little Bear fire, we would expect the water to rise much faster. Pumping any water from FSC is impractical. - Pete On Jul 4, 2018, at 5:46 PM, John Lyles < j...@losalamos.com<mailto:j...@losalamos.com>> wrote: But Ft. Stanton Cave in NM is definitely a place to be careful. Far south on Snowy River was being pushed and mapped in 2014, and by August it began flooding. Midnight Junction camp hasn't seen cavers since then, although we are hoping the present drying trend remains at least until fall there. Sent from BlueMail <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=13130> On Jul 3, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Peter Jones < pjca...@gwi.net<mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>> wrote: Having been a caver in the Guads for 49 years, I can say that there have not been a lot of issues of flooding of our caves to the point where they might cause some serious problems. That does not mean that the caves won’t flood, just that the number that are likely to are pretty limited. Vanishing River Cave, which drains many square miles of canyons upstream from its location, would certainly be considered a no-entry cave during flooding season. I’ve been in Carlsbad (town) several times when there have been real frog strangling rain and the normally empty river beds have been boiling with torrents of rushing water. Had to even drive up to McCollum’s Ranch in a torrential downpour to pick up a friend who decided to hike the Guadalupe Ridge Trail from the Lookout Tower to Carlsbad Caverns National Park and got lost somewhere around Putman Cabin and had to double back that same night, arriving at the Lookout Tower Cabin around 3 AM, totally drenched to the bone. He hiked down the following day and I met up with him just before McCollum’s Ranch to drive him back into town. The flooding was unbelievable!! Other caves that lie in the bottom of major drainages could certainly be a major problem for cavers who don’t pay attention to the weather. A lot of the gyp caves and those like Spider Cave could be a real problem. I also remember the day that I first dropped into Andy’s Cave with Tom Meador into virgin cave and came back to the entrance a couple of hours later to a waterfall pouring down the entrance drop and beginning to fill the canyon side of the 65’ deep drop. It ended after the rain stopped, but it was certainly a wet climb out of there after that torrential event. Just a reminder that we should all be careful about rain (and snow in the winter) when we go caving. Peter On Jul 3, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Geary Schindel < gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org<mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> wrote: Penny, Yes, we’re trying to get our message out as most caves don’t respond to rainfall like this one does. However, we have had our share of rain induced tragedies and close calls in the US. I’ve spent a lot of time looking at major rain events and collected some very interesting hydrograph data on the response of groundwater levels (and caves) to flooding. Many a day, I’ve walked away from caving in low lying caves when there is a chance of rain. When I worked for the NPS in the Mammoth Cave area, we worked a cave where the first 3,000 feet of passage would flood to the ceiling. The entrance was in the bottom of a large sinkhole that drained an area of about 300 acres. We watched the weather very carefully. The issue wasn’t when we were going in but when we came out the next morning. Hopefully, the weather forecast was accurate and wasn’t a problem. However, before crawling into the entrance series with the three low sumps, we would get our lamps charged and headed directly out. Water and flooding is a serious issue in karst and I’ve always thought that drowning in a cave would not reflect well on the career of a karst hydrologist. Geary Schindel gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org<mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> From: Penelope Boston [ mailto:penelope.bos...@nmt.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:33 PM To: Geary Schindel < gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org<mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> Cc: Peter Jones < pjca...@gwi.net<mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>>; Lee Skinner < skin...@thuntek.net<mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>>; swrcavers@googlegroups com < swrcav...@googlegroups.com<mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>; Texas Cavers < Texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com>>; Sandia Grotto < sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com<mailto:sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com>> Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave Dear all, I also hope that this ongoing potential tragedy that we hope becomes a joyous rescue can be used as a teaching moment. The 25 year old coach is to be commended for taking his kids on field trips but his obvious lack of understanding of how caves work in monsoon season is responsible for the situation. I hope that the international cave community can use this opportunity to explain the dangers of this particular instance in that larger context. Not to make caves “scary” but to explain when caves are and are not likely to be hazardous. Here’s hoping for the best, P Sent from my iPhone On Jul 3, 2018, at 15:08, Geary Schindel < gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org<mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> < mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> wrote: Lee, I also wanted to say that your feeds are the latest and most up to date on the situation. Thank you for sharing them. The NSS has had a number of calls from the media regarding this issue. I’ve directed calls first to Anmar Mirza who is the National Coordinator for the National Cave Rescue Commission. I’ve handled any overflow that Anmar couldn’t get to. Anmar has been pulled in numerous directions from the media and has done an excellent job. Couple of points. The media coverage has actually been pretty good considering most media doesn’t have an idea what a cave is or about cave rescues. As the event has gone on, the reports become more factual. Having worked a similar incident at P-11 Cave in Kentucky in 1984, I can tell you the quality of reporting is much better (See the July 1984 NSS News for a number of reports on accidents and the P-11 incident). The Thai government has poured the resources of the country behind the search and rescue efforts and have brought in specialists from around the world. They appear to have done an outstanding job under very difficult conditions and are investigating all of their options. The British cave divers are some of the best in the world and are used to diving in really bad conditions. A positive outcome of the event is not certain as there are a lot of issues that can go wrong and the situation and their response is evolving quickly. Geary Schindel President National Speleological Society From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com<mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com> < mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com> [ mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com < mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Peter Jones Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 AM To: Lee Skinner < skin...@thuntek.net<mailto:skin...@thuntek.net> < mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> Cc: swrcavers@googlegroups com < swrcav...@googlegroups.com<mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com> < mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>; Texas Cavers < Texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com> < mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com>>; Sandia Grotto < sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com<mailto:sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com> < mailto:sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com>> Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave Just wanted to say “thank you”, Lee, for keeping us all up to date on this rescue effort. You’ve made it considerably easier to find the latest, most important details about the rescue. It certainly is far from being over with, but at least there is support for the teens and those who risked their own lives in trying to find them under extremely dangerous circumstances. I’ve had my own share of rescues and injuries already and they all pale in comparison to the difficulty of this one. Peter <image001.jpg> On Jul 3, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Lee H. Skinner < skin...@thuntek.net<mailto:skin...@thuntek.net> < mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote: A video depicting great graphics about the rescue: --Lee Skinner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbyFGQD_ctU&t=9s < https://youtu.be/jbyFGQD_ctU> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Southwestern Cavers of the National Speleological Society" group. 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