---------- Forwarded message --------- From: N Sekar <nseka...@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, May 23, 2024, 10:45 AM Subject: Brahmins were not beggars To: <keralaiy...@googlegroups.com> Cc: Rangarajan T.N.C. <tncrangara...@yahoo.com>, Chittanandam V. R. < chittananda...@gmail.com>, Mathangi K. Kumar <mathangikku...@gmail.com>, Narayanaswamy Sekar <nsekar...@gmail.com>, APS Mani <m...@manijpn.in>, Srinivasan Sridharan <sridhsriniva...@gmail.com>, SRIRAMAJAYAM < vabal...@gmail.com>, Rama (Iyer 123 Group) <kaviran...@gmail.com>
Brahmins were not beggars, not at all. It is just that the brahmins led a life of service and sacrifice, to live for the society as a whole and not ( or supposed to be not) for themselves alone and hence they did not seek wealth - except the wealth of knowledge. That age is gone, long gone. In turn, society took care of all their needs - hence no need to amass wealth for themselves and their progeny. Society gave " Biksha" as a sign of gratitude. Drona and others like him, although experts on archery and others, did not sell their knowledge for a price. Brahmins are not supposed to sell their knowledge for a living but teach the qualified disciples who in turn gave them " Guru Dakshina," to show their gratitude. Guru Dakshina was not demanded but given voluntarily though we have the Mahabharatha say that Drona asked Arjuna, as Guru Dakshina, to capture Draupada - to avenge the insult Draupada metedout to Drona. As the Yugas changed so did the principles and practices and the Kanchi Mahaperiava has also lamented the fact that the brahmins have given up on their traditional duty but have taken up to business and othes, as a means of living. He said the day we started amassing wealth, our decline started. Even now, we have the practice of giving " Biksha" to the Acharyas of Kanchi Mutt. That does not mean the Acharyas beg - it is our way of showing love, affection and respect. Biksha Vandanam is not begging. They don't ask for it but we give. N Sekar Yahoo Mail: Search, Organize, Conquer <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=NativePlacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_EmailSignatureGrowth_YahooMail:Search,Organize,Conquer&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000945&af_sub5=OrganizeConquer__Static_> On Thu, May 23, 2024 at 9:47 AM, 'gopala krishnan' via KeralaIyers <keralaiy...@googlegroups.com> wrote: Respected sir, The Vedic principle was that a Brahmin must be a Vedic scholar, he should perform his Nithyakarmas, and he should survive from what he get as *Dakshina and if not sufficient by Bhiksha. *He should not keep wealth. Nithyakarma include Vedic teaching and attending different samskaras. He gets Dakshina during samskaras. (How another Brahmin give sufficient Dakshina if he is not having wealth is CONFUSING. Perhaps the kings awarded the Vedic brahmins with rewards as money. ) We have come far far away from the Vedic period. Vedic principles are amended by sages and not even followed by sages. Sage Vasistha was not ready to part with his cow Kamadhenu. Hence the war between sage Vasistha and sage Viswamithra. Even sage Jamadagni was not ready to part with Kamadhenu. Hence Karthaveerjuna had to start a war on him. Mr Rajaram either in his own or in copying has misunderstood the term *Bhiksha with alm.* A Brahmin has to live by Dakshina, and Bhiksha. *Alm is begging*. Bhiksha is not begging. Till date we follow Bhiksha at least in principle during upanayanam. Ladies offer Bhiksha rice to the brahmachari for his survival. By talks it has come *pichharisi*. With regards Gopalakrishnan On Thursday, 23 May, 2024 at 10:19:03 am IST, Rajaram Krishnamurthy < keyarinc...@gmail.com> wrote: Dear Sri Sivaramanji That is to be seen in depth and many had written an answer for it. Being a brahmin is not a crest; maybe I am trying to collect interconnected data. The Brahmin caste is not brahmin. Long ago when the quota issue arose in the Madras HC against DMK, I suggested the leading lawyer to argue that Brahmin is not a caste as stamped. Because my name is Chakravarthi, I dont own anything and cannot be presumed to be the owner as alleged. Brahmin is privacy. Given all, Drona was a Kshatriya born to a brahmin parent who might have been beggars following the principle. A PM cannot be rich, a king can. That is the difference. Maybe some time later I will connect them all. Our pride is our intelligence by DNA. That advocate did not understand. And we are being punished.But it is unconstitutional. Thank you KR IRS 23524 On Wed, 22 May 2024 at 23:26, Madras Sivaraman <madras.sivara...@gmail.com> wrote: I am not able to understand the concept that brahmins should always be beggars even though even during the mahabharata war several brahmins were warriors like Drona, Kripa and others. There were mighty brahmin dynasties that ruled India.There have been brahmin warriors in our Indian armed forces who were decorated with the PVC, MVC AND VC apart from Ashok Chakras, Kirti Chakras and Shaurya Chakras. Why is there always this picture of Brahmins as beggars? On Thu, 23 May 2024 at 07:03, Rajaram Krishnamurthy <keyarinc...@gmail.com> wrote: THUS SPAKE DRAUPATI PART4 22524 23524 “It is evident that you know that pleasure may be derived from the possession of various objects of enjoyment. You also very well know their ordinary states, as well as the great changes they undergo. At their loss or disappearance occasioned by decrepitude or death, arises what is called distress. That distress has now overtaken us. The joy that arises from the five senses, the intellect and the heart, being directed to the objects proper to each, is called pleasure. That pleasure is, as I think, one of the best fruits of our actions. Thus, one should regard virtue, wealth and pleasure one after another. One should not devote oneself to virtue alone, nor regard wealth as the highest object of one's wishes, nor pleasure, but should always pursue all three. The scriptures ordain that one should seek virtue in the morning, wealth at noon, and pleasure in the evening. The scriptures also ordain that one should seek pleasure in the first portion of life, wealth in the second, and virtue in the last. They that are wise and fully conversant with proper division of time, pursue all three, virtue, wealth, and pleasure, dividing their time duly. Whether independence of these three, or their possession is the better for those that desire happiness, should be settled by you after careful thought. You should then act either for acquiring them, or abandoning them all. For he who lives wavering between the two doubtingly, leads a wretched life. It is well known that your behaviour is ever regulated by virtue. Knowing this your friends counsel you to act. Gift, sacrifice, respect for the wise, study of the Vedas, and honesty, these, constitute the highest virtue and are efficacious both here and hereafter. These virtues, however, cannot be attained by one that has no wealth, even if he may have infinite other accomplishments. The whole universe depends upon virtue. There is nothing higher than virtue. And virtue is attainable by one that has plenty of wealth. “Wealth cannot be earned by leading a mendicant life, nor by a life of feebleness. Wealth, however, can be earned by intelligence directed by virtue. In your case, begging, which is successful with Brahmanas, has been forbidden. Therefore, strive for the acquisition of wealth by exerting your might and energy. Neither mendicancy, nor the life of a Sudra is what is proper for you. Might and energy constitute the virtue of the Kshatriya in especial. Adopt you, therefore, the virtue of your order and slay the enemies. Destroy the might of Dhritarashtra's sons with my and Arjuna's aid. They that are learned and wise say that sovereignty is virtue. Acquire sovereignty, therefore, for it beholds you not to live in a state of inferiority. Awake, O king! and understand the eternal virtues of the order. By birth you belong to an order whose deeds are cruel and are a source of pain to man. Cherish your subjects and reap the fruit thereof. That can never be a reproach. This is the virtue ordained by God himself for the order to which you belong! If you stray away from there, you will make yourself look ridiculous. Deviation from the virtues of one's own order is never applauded. Therefore, making your heart what it ought to be, agreeably to the order to which you belong, and casting away this course of feebleness, summon your energy and bear your weight like one that bears it manfully. No king could ever acquire the sovereignty of the earth or prosperity or affluence by means of virtue alone. Like a fowler earning his food in the shape of swarms of little easily-tempted game, by offering them some attractive food, does one that is intelligent acquire a kingdom, by offering bribes unto low and covetous enemies. “Behold the Asuras, though elder brothers in possession of power and affluence, were all vanquished by the gods through stratagem. Thus, everything belongs to those that are mighty. Slay your foes, having recourse to stratagem. There is none equal unto Arjuna in wielding the bow in battle. Nor is there anybody that may be equal unto me in wielding the mace. Strong men engage in battle depending on their might, and not on the force of numbers nor on information of the enemy's plans procured through spies. Therefore, exert your might. Might is the root of wealth. Whatever else is said to be its root is really not such. As the shade of the tree in winter goes for nothing, so without might everything else becomes fruitless. Wealth should be spent by one who wishes to increase his wealth, after the manner, of scattering seeds on the ground. Let there be no doubt then in your mind. Where, however, wealth that is more or even equal is not to be gained, there should be no expenditure of wealth. For investment of wealth are like the ass, scratching, pleasurable at first but painful afterwards. *“Thus, the person who throws away, like seeds, a little of his virtue in order to gain a larger measure of virtue, is regarded as wise.* Beyond doubt, it is as I say. They that are wise alienate the friends of the foe that own such, and having weakened him by causing those friends to abandon him thus, they then reduce him to subjection. Even they that are strong, engage in battle depending on their courage. One cannot by even continued efforts or by the arts of conciliation, always conquer a kingdom. Sometimes, men that are weak, uniting in large numbers, slay even a powerful foe, like bees killing the despoiler of the honey by force of numbers alone. Like the sun that sustains as well as slays creatures by his rays, adopt you the ways of the sun. To protect one's kingdom and cherish the people duly, as done by our ancestors, is, it has been heard by us, a kind of asceticism mentioned even in the Vedas. By asceticism, a Kshatriya cannot acquire such regions of blessedness as he can by fair fight whether ending in victory or defeat. “Beholding this your distress, the world has come to the conclusion that light may forsake the Sun and grace the Moon. Good men separately as well as assembling together, converse with one another, applauding you and blaming the other. There is this, moreover, that both the Kurus and the Brahmanas, assembling together, gladly speak of your firm adherence to truth, in that you have never, from ignorance, from meanness, from covetousness, or from fear, uttered an untruth. Whatever sin a king commits in acquiring dominion, he consumes it all afterwards by means of sacrifices distinguished by large gifts. Like the Moon emerging from the clouds, the king is purified from all sins by bestowing villages on Brahmanas and kine by thousands. Almost all the citizens as well as the inhabitants of the country, young or old praise you. This also, the people are saying amongst themselves, that as milk in a bag of dog's hide, as the Vedas in a Shudra, as truth in a robber, as strength in a woman, so is sovereignty in Duryodhana. Even women and children are repeating this, as if it were a lesson they seek to commit to memory. You have fallen into this state along with ourselves. “Alas! we too are lost with you for this calamity of yours. Therefore, ascending in your car furnished with every implement, and making the superior Brahmanas utter benedictions on you, march you with speed, even this very day, upon Hastinapura, in order that you may be able to give unto Brahmanas the spoils of victory. Surrounded by your brothers, who are firm wielders of the bow, and by heroes skilled in weapons and like unto snakes of virulent poison, set you out even like Indra surrounded by the Maruts. As you are powerful, grind you with your might, your weak enemies, like Indra grinding the Asuras; and snatch you from Dhritarashtra's son the prosperity he enjoys. There is no mortal that can bear the touch of the shafts furnished with the feathers of the vulture and resembling snakes of virulent poison, that would be shot from the Gandiva. There is not a warrior, nor an elephant, nor a horse, that is able to bear the impetus of my mace when I am angry in battle. Why should we not wrest our kingdom from the foe, fighting with the aid of the Srinjayas and Kaikeyas, and the bull of the Vrishni <https://www.vyasaonline.com/encyclopedia/vrishni/> race? Why should we not succeed in wrestling the earth that is now in the hands of the foe, if, aided by a large force, we do but strive?” Thus, addressed by Bhimasena, the high-souled king Yudhishthira, firmly devoted to truth, mustering his patience, after a few moments said these words: “O Bhimasena! No doubt all this is true. I cannot reproach you for your torturing me thus by piercing me with your arrowy words. From my folly alone has this calamity come against you. I sought to cast the dice desiring to snatch from Dhritarashtra's son his kingdom with the sovereignty. It was therefore that cunning gambler Shakuni played against me on behalf of Suyodhana. Shakuni, a native of the hilly country, is exceedingly artful. Casting the dice in the presence of the assembly, unacquainted as I am with artifices of any kind, he vanquished me artfully. It is, therefore, that we have been overwhelmed with this calamity. Beholding the dice favourable to the wishes of Shakuni in odds and evens, I could have controlled my mind. Anger, however, drives off a person's patience. The mind cannot be kept under control when it is influenced by hauteur, vanity, or pride. I do not reproach you for the words you use. I only regard that what has befallen us was pre-ordained. When king Duryodhana coveting our kingdom, plunged us into misery and even slavery, then it was Draupadi that rescued us. When summoned again to the assembly for playing once more, you know as well as Arjuna what Dhritarashtra's son told me, in the presence of all the Bharatas, regarding the stake for which we were to play. “His words were, ‘O prince Ajatashatru! If vanquished, you shall have with all your brothers, to dwell, to the knowledge of all men, for twelve years in the forest of your choice, passing the thirteenth year in secrecy. If during the latter period, the spies of the Bharatas, hearing of you, succeed in discovering you, you shall have again to live in the forest for the same period, passing once more the last year in secrecy. Reflecting upon this, pledge yourself to it. As regards myself, I promise truly in this assembly of the Kurus, that if you can pass this time confounding my spies and undiscovered by them, then, this kingdom of the five rivers is once more yours. We also, if vanquished by you, shall, all of us, abandoning all our wealth, pass the same period, according to the same rules.’ “Thus addressed by the prince, I replied unto him in the midst of all the Kurus, ‘So be it!’ The wretched game then commenced. We were vanquished and have been exiled. It is for this that we are wandering miserably over different woody regions abounding with discomfort. Suyodhana, however, still dissatisfied, gave himself up to anger, and urged the Kurus as also all those under his sway to express their joy at our calamity. Having entered into such an agreement in the presence of all good men, who dares break it for the sake of a kingdom on earth? For a respectable person, I think, even death itself is lighter than the acquisition of sovereignty by an act of transgression. At the time of the play, you had desired to burn my hands. You were prevented by Arjuna, and accordingly did only squeeze your own hands. If you could do what you had desired, could this calamity befall us? Conscious of your prowess, why did you not say so before we entered into such an agreement? Overwhelmed with the consequence of our pledge, and the time itself having passed, what is the use of your addressing me with these harsh words? “This is my great grief that we could not do anything even beholding Draupadi persecuted in that way. My heart burns as if I have drunk some poisonous liquid. Having, however, given that pledge in the midst of the Kuru <https://www.vyasaonline.com/encyclopedia/kuru/> heroes, I am unable to violate it now. Wait for the return of our better days, like the scatterer of seeds waiting for the harvest. When one that has been first injured, succeeds in revenging himself upon his foe at a time when the latter's enmity has borne fruit and flowers, he is regarded to have accomplished a great thing by his prowess. Such a brave person earns undying fame. Such a man obtains great prosperity. His enemies bow down unto him, and his friends gather round him, like the celestials clustering round Indra for protection. But know, my promise can never be untrue. I regard virtue as superior to life itself and a blessed state of celestial existence. Kingdom, sons, fame, wealth,--all these do not come up to even a sixteenth part of truth.” Bhima said: “O king! Unsubstantial as you are like froth, unstable like a fruit falling when ripe, dependent on time, and mortal, having entered into an agreement in respect of time, which is infinite and immeasurable, quick like a shaft or flowing like a stream, and carrying everything before it like death itself, how can you regard it as available? How can he wait whose life is shortened every moment, even like a quantity of collyrium that is lessened each time a grain is taken up by the needle? Only someone whose life is unlimited or who knows with certainty what the period of his life is, and who knows the future as if it were before his eyes, can indeed wait for the arrival of an expected time. If we wait for thirteen years, that period, shortening our lives, will bring us nearer to death. Death is sure to overtake every creature having a corporeal existence. Therefore, we should strive for the possession of our kingdom before we die. He that fails to achieve fame, by failing to chastise his foes, is like an unclean thing. He is a useless burden on the earth like an incapacitated bull and perishes ingloriously. The man who, destitute of strength and courage, does not chastise his foes, lives in vain, I regard such a one as low-born. “Your hand can rain gold; your fame spreads over the whole earth; slaying your foes, therefore, in battle, enjoy the wealth acquired by the might of your arms. If a man slaying his injurer, goes the very day into hell, that hell becomes heaven to him. The pain one feels in having to suppress one's wrath is more burning than fire itself. Even now I burn with it and cannot sleep in the day or the night. This Arjuna is foremost in drawing the bow-string. He certainly burns with grief, though he lives here like a lion in his den. This one that desires to slay without aid all wielders of the bow on earth, represses the wrath that rises in his breast, like a mighty elephant. Nakula, Sahadeva, and old Kunti <https://www.vyasaonline.com/encyclopedia/kunti/> are all dumb, desiring to please you. And all our friends along with the Srinjayas equally desire to please you. I alone and Draupadi speak unto you burning with grief. Whatever I speak unto you is agreeable to all of them, for all of them plunged in distress, eagerly wish for battle. Then, what more wretched calamity can overtake us that our kingdom should be wrested from us by weak and contemptible foes and enjoyed by them? “From the weakness of your disposition you feel shame in violating your pledge. But, no one applaudes you for thus suffering such pain in consequence of the kindliness of your disposition. Your intellect sees not the truth, like that of a foolish and ignorant person of high birth who has committed the words of the Vedas to memory without understanding their sense. You are kind like a Brahmana. How have you been born in the Kshatriya order? They that are born in the Kshatriya order are generally of crooked hearts. You have heard the duties of kings, as promulgated by Manu, fraught with crookedness and unfairness and precepts opposed to tranquillity and virtue. Why do you then forgive the wicked sons of Dhritarashtra? You have intelligence, prowess, learning and high birth. Why do you then act in respect of your duties, like a huge snake that is destitute of motion? He that desires to conceal us, only wishes to conceal the mountains of Himavat by means of a handful of grass. Known as you are over the whole earth, you will not be able to live unknown, like the sun that can never course through the sky unknown to men. Like a large tree in a well-watered region with spreading branches and flowers and leaves, or like Indra's elephant, how will Arjuna live unknown? How also will these children, the brothers, Nakula and Sahadeva, equal unto a couple of young lions, both live in secret? How will Krishna, the daughter of Drupada, a princess and mother of heroes, of virtuous deeds and known all over the world, live unknown? Me also, everybody knows from my boyhood. I do not see how I can live unknown. As well, mighty mountains of Meru <https://www.vyasaonline.com/encyclopedia/meru/> are sought to be concealed. Then, again, many kings had been expelled by us from their kingdom. These kings and princes will all follow the bad son of Dhritarashtra, for robbed and exiled by us, they have not still become friendly. Desiring to do good unto Dhritarashtra, they will certainly seek to injure us. They will certainly set against us numerous spies in disguise. If they discover us and report their discovery, a great danger will overtake us. We have already lived in the woods for a full thirteen months. Regards for their length as thirteen years. The wise have said that a month <https://www.vyasaonline.com/encyclopedia/month/> is a substitute for a year, like the pot-herb that is regarded as a substitute for the Soma. Or you may free yourself from this sin by offering good savoury food to a quiet bull carrying sacred burdens. Therefore, resolve to slay your enemies. There is no virtue higher than fighting, for every Kshatriya!” Hearing those words of Bhima, Yudhishthira began to sigh heavily, and reflect in silence. He thought within himself: “I have heard the duties of kings, also all truths about the duties of the different orders. He is said to observe those duties truly who keeps them before his eyes, so as to regulate his conduct both in the present and the future. Knowing as I do the true course of virtue, which, however is so very difficult of being known, how can I forcibly grind virtue down like grinding the mountains of Meru?” Having reflected so for a moment, and settled what he should do, he replied unto Bhima as follows without allowing him another word: “It is so as you have said. But, listen now to another word I say. Whatever sinful deeds one seeks to achieve depending on his courage alone, it always becomes a source of pain. But, whatever is begun with deliberation, with well-directed prowess, with all appliances, and much previous thought, it is seen to succeed. The gods themselves favour such designs. Hear from me something about what you think should be immediately begun. Bhurisravas, Bhishma <https://www.vyasaonline.com/encyclopedia/bhishma/>, Drona, Karna, the mighty son of Drona, Dhritarashtra's sons, Duryodhana and others, so difficult of being vanquished, are all accomplished in arms and ever ready for battle with us. Those kings and chiefs of the earth also who have been injured by us, have all adopted the side of the Kauravas, and are bound by ties of affection to them. They are engaged in seeking the good of Duryodhana and not of us. With full treasures and aided by large forces, they will certainly strive their best in battle. All the officers also of the Kuru army together with their sons and relatives, have been honoured by Duryodhana with wealth and luxuries. Those heroes are also much regarded by Duryodhana. This is my certain conclusion that they will sacrifice their lives for Duryodhana in battle. Although the behaviour of Bhishma, Drona, and the illustrious Kripa, is the same towards us as towards them, yet, this is my certain conclusion that in order to pay off the royal favours they enjoy, they will throw their very lives in battle. All of them are masters of celestial weapons, and devoted to the practice of virtue. I think they are incapable of being vanquished even by gods led by Vasava <https://www.vyasaonline.com/encyclopedia/vasava/> himself. There is again amongst them that mighty warrior, Karna, impetuous, and ever wrathful, master of all weapons, invincible, and encased in impenetrable mail. Without first vanquishing in battle all those foremost of men, unaided as you are, how can you slay Duryodhana? O Bhimasena! I cannot sleep thinking of the lightness of hand of that Suta's son, who, I regard, is the foremost of all wielders of the bow!” Hearing these words of Yudhishthira, the impetuous Bhima became alarmed, and forbore from speaking anything. 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