Hi You are not going to get useful phase noise data out of a normal DMTD …. The DMTD is targeted at ADEV and similar long term / high accuracy measurements. If a DMTD “makes it” to a 10 Hz beat note that is about as far as most people take it.
Bob > On Sep 16, 2019, at 10:41 AM, tim...@timeok.it wrote: > > > Hi Jan, > > this is precisely the instrument that is lacking at a hobbyist price. > > It would be excellent to have the possibility of measuring phase noise. > > Can you anticipate the features of the Sampling DMTD? > > Can it be used with Timelab? > > We are waiting for your new ones. > > Luciano > > > Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-boun...@lists.febo.com > A "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > time-nuts@lists.febo.com > Cc > Data Sat, 14 Sep 2019 14:25:48 +0200 > Oggetto Re: [time-nuts] A simple sampling DMTD > Update: I have finished routing the board (placement diagram at > http://www.lartmaker.nl/time-nuts/DMTD%20rev1.00%20assembly.pdf ) and > ordered a few prototype PCBs. > > After the earlier discussions on the list I've grown sufficiently concerned > about the impact of 1/f converter noise that I have added headers to the > board to allow me to replace the D-flipflop sampler with an FPGA-based I/Q > downconverter. While the main PCBs are in production I'll draw a simple > daughterboard with dual ice40 UltraPlus FPGAs, If the FPGA solution turns > out to be necessary (or a noticeable improvement), I'll redraw the main PCB. > > To be continued, > > JDB. > > On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 2:09 AM Jan-Derk Bakker <jdbak...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I've been working on a design for a (relatively) simple, standalone >> sampling DMTD. Very rough preliminary schematics can be found at >> http://www.lartmaker.nl/time-nuts/DMTD_rev0.99.pdf . >> >> Design goals are: >> - ps-level accuracy >> - comparison of frequencies between at least 10 and 50MHz, preferably >> between 1 and 100MHz >> - comparison of (selected) different frequencies (in my case: 10MHz vs >> 50MHz) >> - standalone operation, field-portable >> - option for raw data sampling / (post)processing on a PC >> - option for generating a tuning voltage to lock the measured oscillator >> to the reference, so the DMTD can act as a PLL in phase noise test setups >> >> Context: you may remember that a year or two ago I posted to time-nuts >> about a GPSDO-design geared for mobile applications, which I was working on >> for an SDR-platform my students are working with. This SDR-platform has now >> grown to include a 100-channel phased array receiver. To validate the >> reference clock distribution in this array (amongst other things) I would >> like to have a DMTD. As the commercial offerings are outside the budget of >> our lab, I was planning to roll my own. >> >> The core of the system is a transformer-coupled LTC2140-14 dual 14-bit >> ADC, sampling at an offset frequency of nominally 10MHz+10Hz generated by a >> VCTCXO (with an option for an OCXO). The ADC was chosen for its large input >> bandwidth and small aperture jitter. Simulations of a simple software ZCD >> consisting of a digital filter and least-squares fitting showed that >> 100ksps would be more than enough to get the desired accuracy. As the ADC >> design is unable to achieve sample rates lower than 1MSPS, D-flipflops are >> used to decimate the samples. These DFFs are also used to multiplex the >> 2x14-bit samples to an 8-bit data bus going into one of the GPIO-ports of >> an XMega. The XMega runs the ZCD, and generates a tuning voltage for the >> offset oscillator. Communication to a logging PC is done with a >> galvanically isolated FT2232H, which has both an ASCII COM-port for the ZCD >> data and a control interface and an asynchronous FIFO to transfer raw >> samples. System power comes from the isolated USB bus or a barrel jack; BOM >> cost in qty10+ is around 100US$. >> >> (The DMTD has a few more power rails than I would have liked. Originally I >> had planned to use the LTC2295 and have a 3v3-only system, but after >> re-reading the NIST paper on SDR-as-a-DMTD I concluded that the single >> clocking path of the 2140 would likely have better aperture jitter >> correlation between the channels. As a 1.8V/10MHz XMega would only be >> borderline able to handle the computations, I ended up with this design. >> LVC logic is used to go from 3.3V->1.8V, LV1T translators for the opposite >> direction.) >> >> Design decisions and/or non-goals: >> - I considered putting a small FPGA (specifically a Lattice ice40 >> UltraPlus) between the ADC and the processor. This was rejected because the >> performance of the decimator appeared to be sufficient, and I wasn't >> certain that I could get DDR mode + a CORDIC working in this FPGA. >> - Especially when I found the necessity to move part of the system to 1.8V >> I considered moving to an ARM. I stuck with the XMega as performance was >> sufficient, and I am very familiar with both the CPU and the peripherals >> (particularly time-stamping counters and the Event system) that would ease >> the ZCD implementation and issues like synchronization between processor >> and sampling system. >> - I looked into integrating a phase noise measurement, but could find no >> easy way that wouldn't degrade DMTD operation in the process. The tuning >> voltage output is an inexpensive compromise (as I still had a DAC and >> enough cycles to spare) >> - The main thing I'm unsure about is the effect of the balun on phase >> performance wrt temperature and termination matching. I've kept to the >> baluns as they add less noise than a fully differential amplifier would. >> >> While I've made this design for my own purposes, I would be more than >> happy to put it under an Open Hardware-license and/or work with TAPR or >> other parties to get it distributed, should there be interest. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> with kind regards, >> >> Jan-Derk Bakker >> [planning to start board layout tomorrow; looks like this should >> definitely fit on a 100x160mm Eurocard inside a Hammond 1455-series box] >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com and follow the instructions there.