Magnus, Tom,
I can't thank you both enough for all the good input.
As this email contains some attachments and inline picture it goes
directly to both of you.
1: I've tested varying the slew rate. With a slow slew rate the trigger
level setting showed a much increased range for changing the phase but
no impact on the phase measurement accuracy or value has been observed.
2: I did find papers from Collins on edge detection but nothing specific
on zero-cross-detectors. The zero cross detector I will probably be
using is an off the shelf component:
https://datasheet.lcsc.com/lcsc/2201131130_Gainsil-GS8743-TR_C840038.pdf
One input will be the trigger level input and the other connected to the
high-Z input using a restive divider. This component is selected for its
speed (100MHz input possible) and low cost.
This is the whole analog part of the input where U10 is the zero cross
detector and U24 an XOR to select positive and negative edges as the
rest of the circuit can only work with positive edges.
3: I've tested with two different frequencies, 10 MHz and 1MHz, both 0.1
Hz apart, and measured the phase at a 0.1 s interval (see TIM files).
The unwrapped zero based chart showed very different pulling, although
both are worst when the phase difference is around zero.
The 1 MHz measurement showed, next to the spikes at zero phase
difference, an interesting regular pattern over a 10 s period, not yet
explained.
4: I've looked into the math producing the steyx and its clear there are
insufficient digits (16) in my math, only with low input frequencies,
short gate times and low subsample rate it can always produce a relevant
(non zero) number. I have no clue how to reduce the digit count, I tried
subtracting an estimated global trend but as the x intervals are not
constant that does not work with the integer math. I tried shifting the
Y so the sumxy term gets lower but that is insufficient as the sumy2 is
already > 1e+16 with 10 MHz input, will be even worse with 100MHz input.
sumy2 is > 1e+20 with 0.1 s gate time. So it seems the steyx is usable
to detect when measuring noise but otherwise only under very specific
conditions.
5: The CPU load issue seem to be OK now, I've removed some calculations
from the capture interrupt routines by introducing double buffering of
the summation registers and the calculations are now stable with
increasing sub-sample rate untill the MCU has no more time left to draw
the screen updates or do usb communication and hangs.
Erik.
On 6-2-2022 3:08, Magnus Danielson via time-nuts wrote:
Erik,
You also also test the issue by vary the slew-rate of the input
signal. The trigger circuit will convert voltage noise into time
noise, and any such leakage will become larger time for slower slew-rate.
You can look up Collins paper amongst others for zero-cross-detectors.
Combining that with the knowledge of leakage can be fruitful to
understand the analog side of it.
The cross-talk comes in two flavours, one is just straight
signal-leakage, typically capacitive coupling, the other is indirect
through common ground-bounce which is really inductive.
High resolution counters have been used to analyze signal integrity
issues like these. An alternative approach is TDR/TDT, which I tend to
fancy.
A good way to characterize an input is to measure the RMS for a sweep
over all phase relationships of the incomming phase and that of the
coarse clock. One need to make sure one covers those phase
relationships equally enough.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 2022-02-04 11:49, Erik Kaashoek wrote:
Magnus,
Thanks, good input. To check if there is "pulling" between the two
counter inputs I used two signals generated by two PLL's from the
same OCXO. First measurement is both at 10MHz. The ratio of these two
signals was measured in the two counters using a shared 10MHz
reference with a 0.1 s gate time. The ADEV behaves well and starts
below 1e-9.
When one of the signals is shifted with 0.1 Hz (ratio change 1e-8) or
0.2 Hz (ratio change 2e-8) the ADEV starts to show oscillations and
the frequency difference shows a pulling pattern that repeats every
10 s for 0.1 Hz difference and 5 s for 0.2 Hz difference.
Both ADEV and frequency difference plots are attached
The difference between the 10MHz from the signal generator and the
10MHz reference in the counters was large enough to not create any
visible pulling using a 0.1 s gate time but when I brought the 10MHz
from the signal generator close (within 0.2 Hz) to the 10MHz
reference in the counter the interaction became very visible and the
repetition rate nicely varied with the measured frequency difference.
This clearly demonstrates the cross-talk you mentioned, both between
the two counter inputs and between the inputs and the counter
reference OCXO
As my goal is to create a dual input timestamping counter that can
reliably measure with 1e-9 accuracy (both short and long term) there
is clearly some work to do.
Erik.
On 3-2-2022 17:14, Magnus Danielson via time-nuts wrote:
Erik,
You should be aware that cross-talk of transitions is a factor here.
It "pulls" the transition to the time-base clock.
It can be worth evaluating this by delaying the time-base clock in
controlled manor and measure non-linearity of the time-stamps.
A similar test is done between two inputs, as the trigger inputs can
cause cross-talk from one another. This is known to be the issue of
several vendors counters.
As you push the limit for the resolution, these effects tends to
increase in relative size, but for other work they can be fairly
ignored.
For some reason I have built a collection of pulse-generators and
delay mechanisms to increase the ability to test this. :)
Cheers,
Magnus
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;
;Measurement log file C:\Users\Erik\Google Drive\FreqCount\Rotating 10 s
10MHz.tim
;Written by TimeLab 1.55b (Beta) of Nov 28 2021 by John Miles, KE5FX
(j...@miles.io)
;
STR 0x00000000 "Driver" Acquire from counter in Talk-Only mode ...
STR 0x79000000 "Channel" Ch 0
STR 0xC8000000 "Time/Date" 6-2-2022 11:58:13
DBL 0xCD400000 "MJD" 59616.49877587963
STR 0x05000001 "Trace" Rotating 10 s 10MHz
STR 0x0A000001 "Notes" Fast slew rate
STR 0xE6000001 "Instrument"
STR 0x00000000 "Port Configuration" baud=9600 parity=N data=8 stop=1
S32 0x00000000 "Counter Connection Type" 5
STR 0xFA000000 "Imported From"
DBL 0x32200041 "Sample Interval" 0.1
BLN 0x00000000 "Autosense Rate" False
DBL 0x14000081 "Input Freq" 1e7
S32 0x5A000000 "Bin Density" 29
S32 0x5F000000 "Bin Threshold" 4
S32 0x50000000 "Trace History" 1
DBL 0x3C001001 "Duration" 60300000.00000001
S32 0x00000000 "Duration Type" 5
S32 0x00000000 "Stop Condition" 0
S32 0x00000000 "Data Format" 0
STR 0x00000000 "Comment Prefix"
STR 0x00000000 "Interface" COM30
STR 0x00000000 "Setup String"
S32 0x00000000 "Field #" 2
S32 0x00000000 "Stability Channel Count" 1
STR 0x00000000 "Stability Channel ID"
DBL 0x2D000000 "Scale Factor" 1
BLN 0x00000000 "Phase" True
BLN 0x00000000 "Unwrapped Phase" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Frequency" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Frequency Difference" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Timestamp" False
S32 0x00000000 "EOS Character" 10
BLN 0x00000000 "HP 5313xA Mode" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Prologix Compatibility Mode" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Read Existing Data" False
S32 0x00000000 "Wrap Period" 1000000
S32 0x00000000 "Data Type" 0
BLN 0x00000000 "Unwrapped" False
S32 0x00000000 "Driver version" 112
S32 0x00000000 "$orig_duration_type" 3
DBL 0x00000000 "$orig_duration" 1
TIC 603
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;
;Measurement log file C:\Users\Erik\Google Drive\FreqCount\Rotating 10 s
1MHz.tim
;Written by TimeLab 1.55b (Beta) of Nov 28 2021 by John Miles, KE5FX
(j...@miles.io)
;
STR 0x00000000 "Driver" Acquire from counter in Talk-Only mode ...
STR 0x79000000 "Channel" Ch 0
STR 0xC8000000 "Time/Date" 6-2-2022 11:54:34
DBL 0xCD400000 "MJD" 59616.49624583333
STR 0x05000001 "Trace" Rotating 10 s 1MHz
STR 0x0A000001 "Notes" Fast slew rate
STR 0xE6000001 "Instrument"
STR 0x00000000 "Port Configuration" baud=9600 parity=N data=8 stop=1
S32 0x00000000 "Counter Connection Type" 5
STR 0xFA000000 "Imported From"
DBL 0x32200041 "Sample Interval" 0.1
BLN 0x00000000 "Autosense Rate" False
DBL 0x14000081 "Input Freq" 1e6
S32 0x5A000000 "Bin Density" 29
S32 0x5F000000 "Bin Threshold" 4
S32 0x50000000 "Trace History" 1
DBL 0x3C001001 "Duration" 60500000
S32 0x00000000 "Duration Type" 5
S32 0x00000000 "Stop Condition" 0
S32 0x00000000 "Data Format" 0
STR 0x00000000 "Comment Prefix"
STR 0x00000000 "Interface" COM30
STR 0x00000000 "Setup String"
S32 0x00000000 "Field #" 2
S32 0x00000000 "Stability Channel Count" 1
STR 0x00000000 "Stability Channel ID"
DBL 0x2D000000 "Scale Factor" 1
BLN 0x00000000 "Phase" True
BLN 0x00000000 "Unwrapped Phase" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Frequency" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Frequency Difference" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Timestamp" False
S32 0x00000000 "EOS Character" 10
BLN 0x00000000 "HP 5313xA Mode" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Prologix Compatibility Mode" False
BLN 0x00000000 "Read Existing Data" False
S32 0x00000000 "Wrap Period" 1000000
S32 0x00000000 "Data Type" 0
BLN 0x00000000 "Unwrapped" False
S32 0x00000000 "Driver version" 112
S32 0x00000000 "$orig_duration_type" 3
DBL 0x00000000 "$orig_duration" 1
TIC 605
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