There are so many interesting comment on this thread that it's not going to be easy to credit (or disentangle) them all, but here goes. The primary issue in this post is Jim Guinee's accusation that my comments about Antony Flew's alleged miraculous conversion to belief in God are both "DESPERATE" and "prejudicial". As Dennis Goff has helpfully provided us with a statement from Flew that he remains firmly an atheist, Jim's original announcement seems a tad premature. Notwithstanding that, I have some points to make.
First, Jim objects to my suggestion that Flew's supposed sudden conversion to God may indicate the onset of Alzheimer's because "from my angle you reflexively went to an explanation that seems unlikely (given the relatively small percentage of individuals his age that suffer from Alzheimer's)." It's easy to check this. Flew is 81 years old. An authoritative website, theforgetting.com, "an online resource fo the Alzheimer's community" (http://www.randomhouse.com/features/forgetting/whatis.html) says that 13% of 77-year-olds and 50% of those 85 years old or older have dementia. So rather than there being a '"relatively small percentage of individuals his age that suffer from Alzheimer's", the percentage is substantial. From age alone, Professor Flew is at high risk of Alzheimer's. Of course, his recent articulate statement refuting news of his conversion suggests otherwise. Jim also asked (rhetorically, of course): > What if a prominent racist changed his tune in later years -- would > you also chalk that up to dementia? I have a better example. What if a life-long Firm Believer such as Jim Guinee at age 81 suddenly decided to curse God and become an atheist? I'd certainly suspect the onset of dementia in such a case. (Fortunately, this example is hypothetical). Next issue: my comment that "Firm Believers... say that an allegedly loving God is going to torture me in Hell for all eternity for not believing" drew this startling response from Jim: "No firm believer that I know if [of] believes that or teaches that, and it's not based on biblical interpretation". Especially as Jim himself (back on Feb 28th, 2001, this list) said: "Admittedly, a very unpleasant aspect of biblical Christianity is the belief that non-Christians go to a very bad place". Now, others, notably Paul Smith, have pointed out that I've stumbled into a rather tricky theological issue. It seems that it's not clear who is responsible for the torment of non-believers in Hell, whether it's God, or the Devil, or merely the default setting for those who don't believe (you have to click on God to enter the Kingdom of Heaven). My concern is more practical. Regardless of who does it, it's gonna happen, right? Now, I'm ok wth allowing people to believe whatever they like about what happens to _them_, but I do find it offensive when they extend their beliefs to what happens to _me_. It seems a rather small step from believing that I'm going to suffer an eternity in Hell to believing that I'm _now_ less than human (see Lorenz, Konrad). Illustrative anecdote: My wife likes to occasionally disclose that she's Jewish to her students, as most have never knowingly met one in person (one response, from an adult (middle-aged) student, "Oh you can't be Jewish! You're nice! [See also http://www.landoverbaptist.org/thelittlejew.htm]) . But a teen-ager in another class became visibly upset and asked to speak to her afterwards. It turned out that he had a high regard for my wife, and was terrified that as a Jew she would end up in Hell unless he immediately helped her to convert. Other evidence that this is a common belief comes from Aubry's post ["I know lots of Firm Believers who teach just what Stephen states above"] and the disturbing information from Linda Woolf about the Chick Tracts. As for Jim's surprising claim that "it's not based on biblical interpretation", we have the quotations from Aubry which indicate otherwise. No Biblical scholar myself, I went googling, and I also came up with the following: http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl3.htm "In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the author describes how Jesus will return to earth in a blaze of fire and inflict vengeance on the great majority of humanity. Those who "do not know God and do not obey the gospel" will be "punished with everlasting destruction." "Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." So it does look as though there's no hope for me, at least according to a widespread belief. Still, given the imminent onset of a Quebec winter, it might be nice to be warm for a change. Stephen ___________________________________________________ Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. tel: (819) 822-9600 ext 2470 Department of Psychology fax: (819) 822-9661 Bishop's University e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lennoxville, QC J1M 1Z7 Canada Dept web page at http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy TIPS discussion list for psychology teachers at http://faculty.frostburg.edu/psyc/southerly/tips/index.htm _______________________________________________ --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [email protected] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
