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ABSTRACT
Anita Pincas (2008a) wrote that she was bothered by the use of pre/post testing [extolled in "Can Scientific Research Enhance the Art of Teaching?" [Hake (2007a)] because the post testing is ordinarily carried out at the end of a course whereas "what has been learned as a consequence of. . . [a course]. . . may not become evident until very much later in the learner's life, for all kinds of complex reasons." But who would argue that pedagogy that drastically increases pre-to-post course gains over those attained by traditional methods of instruction should be ignored because the post testing is carried out directly after the course rather than "very much later in the learner's life" ?
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In response to my post "Re: art of teaching" [Hake (2008a)] and its reference to "Can Scientific Research Enhance the Art of Teaching?" [Hake (2007a)], Anita Pincas (2008a) brought up two points in her WBTOLL-L post to which I shall respond:

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1. ". . . . I like your approach to teaching in term of input vis a vis output [pre/post testing]. However, there is something that bothers me a lot in this, namely the fact that what has been learned as a consequence of a teaching event [or series of, in a course] may not become evident until very much later in the learner's life, for all kinds of complex reasons."

In physics education research pre-to-post course test gains have been primarily used to gauge student learning in courses in Newtonian mechanics - a conceptually difficult and counterintuitive subject.

It is not easy to promote student crossover from the intuitive Aristotelian to the counterintuitive Newtonian World, but compared to traditional passive-student lecture courses, "interactive engagement" courses can yield normalized pre-to-post test gains which are about two-standard deviations greater than those achieved by traditional passive-student lecture courses [see Hake (1987; 1998a,b) and confirmatory results in about 25 other independent peer-reviewed publications as listed in Hake (2008b)].

However, I think it's unlikely that people will crossover to the Newtonian World many years after a course without further guided interactive engagement. The reason is that most ordinary real-world experiences tend to reinforce Aristotelian rather than Newtonian concepts, witness the Aristotelian outlook of most adults.

Nevertheless, I agree that what is learned in *some* courses, for example psychology, "may not become evident until very much later in the learner's life." Thus, in such courses where post testing immediately follows the course, unimpressive pre-to-post test gains may not necessarily mean that the course was of little benefit.

On the other hand, who would argue that pedagogy that drastically increases pre-to-post course gains over those attained by traditional methods of instruction should be ignored because the post testing is carried out directly after the course rather than "very much later in the learner's life" ? Unfortunately, high-resolution pre/post test measurement of student learning in most university courses is prevented by, among other things, the pre/post paranoia that is rampant among some psychologists, education specialists, and psychometricians (PEP's) - see e.g., "Possible Palliatives for the Paralyzing Pre/Post Paranoia that Plagues Some PEP's" [Hake (2006)], "Should We Measure Change? Yes!" [Hake (2008c)], and "Can Distance and Classroom Learning Be Increased?" [Hake (2008d)].
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2. "Agreed that an educational institution most frequently wants 'results now', but how can we also allow for later effects when evaluating teaching, given that we cannot carry on post-testing?"

In a few instances, post testing HAS been done over periods of a few years after the completion of mechanics courses. In "Six Lessons From the Physics Education Reform Effort" [Hake (2007b)] I wrote [bracketed by lines "HHHHHH. . . . ."; see that article for references other than Chabay (1997), Francis et al. (1998), Hake (1998a,b; 2005a), & Bernhard (2001)]:
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LESSON 1: THE USE OF INTERACTIVE ENGAGEMENT (IE) STRATEGIES CAN INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF CONCEPTUALLY DIFFICULT COURSES WELL BEYOND THAT OBTAINED BY TRADITIONAL (T) METHODS. Education research in chemistry [Krause et al. (2004)]; engineering [Froyd et al. (2006), Evans et al. (2003)]; and introductory science education generally [Handelsman et al. (2004)], although neither as extensive nor as systematic as that in physics [McDermott and Redish (1999); Redish (1999); Thacker (2003); Heron & Meltzer (2005); Hake (1998a,b; 2002a,b; 2005a; 2006a,b; 2007a,b); Wieman & Perkins (2005); Wieman (2005)] is consistent with the latter in suggesting that, in conceptually difficult areas, Interactive Engagement (IE) methods are more effective than traditional T passive-student methods in enhancing students' understanding. FURTHERMORE, THERE IS SOME PRELIMINARY EVIDENCE THAT LEARNING IN IE PHYSICS COURSES IS SUBSTANTIALLY RETAINED 1 TO 3 YEARS AFTER THE COURSES HAVE ENDED [Chabay (1997), Francis et al. (1998), Bernhard (2001)].

I see no reason to doubt that enhanced understanding and retention would result from greater use of IE methods in other science, and even non-science, areas, but substantive research on this issue is sorely needed - see e.g., "The Physics Education Reform Effort: A Possible Model for Higher Education?" [Hake (2005a)].
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BTW, Anita's challenge to the value of pre/post testing is reminiscent of her cogent challenge to the legitimacy of "Trigg's Rules of Grammar" [Pincus (2008b,c)]. My thanks to Anita for her helpful input (see the Burke signature quote).

Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
24245 Hatteras Street, Woodland Hills, CA 91367
Honorary Member, Curmudgeon Lodge of  Deventer, The Netherlands.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake/>
<http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~sdi

"He . . . .[or she]. . . . that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper."
      Edmund Burke (1790)

". . . as typically used in existing studies, self reported gains or growth do not permit the same level of internal validity as does assessing gains by pretest-posttest design, where pretest and posttest estimates are based on the same instrument."
       Ernest Pascarella (2001)

REFERENCES
Bernhard, J. 2001. "Does active engagement curricula give long-lived conceptual understanding?" pages 749-752 in R. Pinto and S. Surinach, editors, "Physics teacher education beyond 2000." Elsevier, Paris, France; online at <http://staffwww.itn.liu.se/~jonbe/fou/didaktik/papers/girep2000_active.pdf> (184 kB).

Burke, E. 1790. "Reflections on the Revolution in France." Available as a 2006 edition by Dover; Amazon.com information at <http://tinyurl.com/3kcue2>. Google book preview at <http://tinyurl.com/3svjam>. See also <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflections_on_the_Revolution_in_France>.

Chabay, R.W. 1997. "Qualitative understanding and retention," AAPT Announcer 27(2): 96.

Francis, G.E., J.P. Adams, and E.J. Noonan. 1998. "Do they stay fixed?" Physics Teacher 36(8): 488-491, online to subscribers at <http://scitation.aip.org/dbt/dbt.jsp?KEY=PHTEAH&Volume=36&Issue=8>.

Hake, R.R. 1987. "Promoting Student Crossover to the Newtonian World," Am. J. Phys. 55(10): 878-884; online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake/PromotingCrossover.pdf> (788 kB).

Hake, R.R. 1998a. "Interactive-engagement vs traditional methods: A six thousand-student survey of mechanics test data for introductory physics courses," Am. J. Phys. 66(1): 64-74; online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~sdi/ajpv3i.pdf> (84 kB). See also the crucial companion paper Hake (1998b).

Hake, R.R. 1998b. "Interactive-engagement methods in introductory mechanics courses," online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~sdi/IEM-2b.pdf> (108 kB) - a crucial companion paper to Hake (1998a).

Hake, R. R. 2005a. "The Physics Education Reform Effort: A Possible Model for Higher Education?" online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake/NTLF42.pdf> (100 kB). This is a slightly edited version of an article that was (a) published in the National Teaching and Learning Forum 15(1), December, online to subscribers at <http://www.ntlf.com/FTPSite/issues/v15n1/physics.htm>, and (b) disseminated by the Tomorrow's Professor list <http://ctl.stanford.edu/Tomprof/postings.html> as Msg. 698 on 14 Feb 2006. If your institution doesn't subscribe to the "National Teaching and Learning Forum," then in should.

Hake, R.R. 2006. Possible Palliatives for the Paralyzing Pre/Post Paranoia that Plagues Some PEP's, Journal of MultiDisciplinary Evaluation 6, November, online at <http://survey.ate.wmich.edu/jmde/index.php/jmde_1/issue/view/22>. This even despite the admirable anti-alliteration advice at psychologist Donald Zimmerman's site <http://mypage.direct.ca/z/zimmerma/> to "Always assiduously and attentively avoid awful, awkward, atrocious, appalling, artificial, affected alliteration." This is a severely truncated version of "Should We Measure Change? Yes! [Hake (2008c).

Hake, R.R. 2007a. "Can Scientific Research Enhance the Art of Teaching?" invited talk, AAPT Greensboro meeting, 31 July, online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake/Sci&Art3.pdf> (1.2 MB). See also Hake (2008a).

Hake, R.R. 2007b. "Six Lessons From the Physics Education Reform Effort," Latin American Journal of Physics Education 1(1), September; online at <http://journal.lapen.org.mx/sep07/HAKE%20Final.pdf> (124 kB).

Hake, R.R. 2007c. "Over Sixty Academic Discussion Lists: List Addresses and URL's for Archives & Search Engines," online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake/ADL-L.pdf> (640 kB), or as ref. 49 at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake>. See the ADDENDUM for a critique of academic discussion lists.

Hake, R.R. 2008a. "Re: art of teaching," online at <http://tinyurl.com/3ed3rl>. Post of 17 Sep 2008 to AERA-C, AERA-J, AERA-K, AERA-L, AP-Physics, IFETS, NetGold, Physhare, Phys-L, PhysLrnR, POD, STLHE-L, TIPS, & WBTOLL-L. For a guide to (and critique of) discussion lists see Hake (2007c).

Hake, R.R. 2008b. "Design-Based Research in Physics Education Research: A Review," in "Handbook of Design Research Methods in Education: Innovations in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics Learning and Teaching" [Kelly, Lesh, & Baek (2008)] - publisher's information at <http://tinyurl.com/46k946>; a pre-publication version of Hake's chapter is online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake/DBR-Physics3.pdf> (1.1 MB).

Hake, R.R. 2008c. 'Should We Measure Change? Yes!" online at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake/MeasChangeS.pdf> or as ref. 43 at <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake>. To appear as a chapter in Hake, R.R. "Evaluation of Teaching and Student Learning in Higher Education" [Hake, in preparation].

Hake, R.R. 2008d. "Can Distance and Classroom Learning Be Increased?" IJ-SoTL 2(1): January; online at <http://tinyurl.com/2t5sro>. The "International Journal of Scholarship of Teaching and Learning" (IJ-SoTL) <http://www.georgiasouthern.edu/ijsotl/> is an open, peer reviewed, international electronic journal containing articles, essays, and discussions about the scholarship of teaching and learning (SoTL) and its applications in higher/tertiary education today.

Pascarella, E. 2001. "Using student self-reported gains to estimate college impact: A cautionary tale," Journal of College Student Development 42: 488-492, online at
<http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3752/is_200109/ai_n8976019>.

Pincas, A. 2008a. "Re: art of teaching," WBTOLL-L post of 18 Sep 2008 08:58:50+0100, online at <http://tinyurl.com/48w6vx>.

Pincas, A. 2008b. "Re: Trigg's Rules of Grammar - challenged," WBTOLL-L post of 20 Jan 2008 08:29:30+0000, online at <http://tinyurl.com/4xgfc2>.

Pincas, A. 2008c. "Re: Trigg's Rules of Grammar - Challenged," WBTOLL-L post of 22 Jan 2008 09:07:16+0000, online at <http://tinyurl.com/4bqs75>.









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