In reply to Jim Clark writing that he "would be very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting process that led some few to stardom",
Joan Warmbold wrote: >Daniel Coyle makes a convincing case for otherwise. He noted >over and over again the so-called hot beds had two crucial >elements: a) a person who provided inspiration, or in his words, >"ignition,"; and then, b) opportunity for lots of deep practice. >[…] But what Coyle does make a very convincing case for is >that children's environmental experiences are the most important >part of the formula. He does go further to make the case that >genetic predisposition is not part of the equation at all, or if >so, a very small part… There's no dispute that environmental opportunities and hard work are crucial factors for an individual's exceptional achievement – nor, I think, that such hard work on a specific skill, at least in childhood, produces changes in the brain concordant with the talent in question. Nor is there any dispute that high levels of commitment are a necessary factor in reaching high levels of achievement. But, whatever Coyle may state, none of this rules out the likelihood that genetic factors play a crucial role in exceptional cases of achievement. I suspect it is a mistake to treat all exceptional achievement in the same way, e.g., athletic achievement and musical talent. For instance, the soccer player David Beckham undoubtedly acquired his special talent of extraordinary accuracy in long passes by hard work, i.e., repeated practice. But I don't believe a budding composer can advance his or her talents very much by repeatedly copying the same (or different) pieces of music over and over again. Incidentally, despite his worldwide stardom, soccer commentators recognize that Beckham's talents are relatively limited. Despite having the advantage of all the factors cited by Coyle, he is not regarded as one of the greats of the game; for example, his ability to take on defenders and get past them is notoriously poor, and certainly not in the same ball park as someone like George Best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6T_wpBZ0nY&feature=related To put it another way, considerable player that he is, Beckham doesn't have the exceptional natural talent of a Best or Pele. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org --------------------------------------------- From: Joan Warmbold <jwarm...@oakton.edu> Subject: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:12:44 -0600 (CST) Thanks for your book recommendation Carol--sounds very interesting if not upsetting. Two books I would highly recommend (or have I already--yikes) are: Talent Code by Coyle--incredible book on the hot spots around the globe that have produced extraordinary numbers of very gifted and highly motivated children in soccer, the arts, tennis, etc. And the source of these high numbers of gifted children/young adults is not genetic folks. http://www.thesimplerlife.net/2010/05/22/book-review-the-talent-code/ The second book that's a must read is "Safe Patients, Smart Hospitals." Peter Pronovost. A review is below--and I now will only go to a hospital that uses the team and check-list system described in this book if I need care for any type of serious health issue. http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781594630644,00.html Hmmm. . . this is ringing too many bells so sorry for the redundancy--but they are really good! Would love to hear from others recommended good reads! Joan Joan (Warmbold) Boggs Professor of Psychology Oakton Community College jwarm...@oakton.edu -------------------------------------- From: Jim Clark <j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca> Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 13:41:10 -0600 Hi One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's a passage from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. "The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. Soccer is the one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early enough. Many of the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very poor backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would be a very tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would be very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting process that led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits them once their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca From: Mike Palij <m...@nyu.edu> Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:26:09 -0500 On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 11:41:44 -0800, Jim Clark wrote in response to Joan Warmbold's recommendation of the "Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle: >Hi >One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's a >passage from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. > >"The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. Soccer is the >one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early enough. Many of >the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very poor >backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." > >The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would be a >very tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would be >very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting process >that led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits >them once their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. Jim's comments triggered my memory for why the Dominican Republic (cited on the website as an example of a source of "talent") produces such extraordinary baseball players. It's not a pretty picture, similar to what Jim describes for the pool in Brazil, but is given in more detail in the following article: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1028-25.htm I am frequently confused when a person uses the word "talent" because it is not clear what they mean by it. Often it is a fundamental attribution error, that is, it seems to be more valid to explain a person's behavior by focusing on dispositional variables (e.g., "native intelligence", "native skill", "heart", desire or motivation or other personality or person-based variables instead of (a) the environment in which the behavior is observed or an individual-environment interaction and/or (b) a history of training and development under a number of wise and intelligent mentors). Like the Just World Hypothesis, many people like to think that a person's achievements reflect solely on their efforts and "talents" while in truth the achievement probably could not have been made without the assistance/input of a large number of people (just watch the ending credits of a movie to get a sense of how many people need to be involved in that enterprise). -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --------------------- From: Joan Warmbold <jwarm...@oakton.edu> Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:56:17 -0600 Daniel Coyle makes a convincing case for otherwise. He noted over and over again the so-called hot beds had two crucial elements: a) a person who provided inspiration, or in his words, "ignition,"; and then, b) opportunity for lots of deep practice. What was fairly unique to Brazil was that from the age of 5 to 10 or so the boys play an alternate version of soccer called futsal. It's indoors with a field have the size and so provides the players 6 times the opportunity to practice--i.e., far more intense and engaging. He also cites a study of 157 randomly chosen children who were planning on taking musical lessons and followed them from a few weeks before they started their lessons through high school. The factor that best predicted who would end up at the top were the answers they gave to the question, "How long do you plan to play this instrument?" The researcher then organized the answers into three groups: low/medium/high level of and it was the children who had the high level commitment that consistently came out on top. He also notes a number of times that teachers predictions of who will come out on top relative to their apparent gift or talent does not correlate well at all with who does end up at the top. His contention is that kids who are ignited by a role model (Anna Kournikova in Russia; Andruw Jones-correct spelling-from small island of Caracao who each ignited a passion for tennis and baseball, respectively. Jim, your point certainly sounds logical as, with all the competition, how could genetic potential not be part of the equation. But what Coyle does make a very convincing case for is that children's environmental experiences are the most important part of the formula. He does go further to make the case that genetic predisposition is not part of the equation at all, or if so, a very small part. Have you read the entire book? I was impressed with the role of the growth of the myelin tissue that occurs when a child practices intensely for that required 10,000 hours. Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu Thanks for your book recommendation Carol--sounds very interesting if not upsetting. Two books I would highly recommend (or have I already--yikes) are: Talent Code by Coyle--incredible book on the hot spots around the globe that have produced extraordinary numbers of very gifted and highly motivated children in soccer, the arts, tennis, etc. And the source of these high numbers of gifted children/young adults is not genetic folks. I'd like to tie this up with Stephen and Scott's posts on myths. There seems to be a myth that it is widely believed that exceptional talent Jim Clark wrote The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would be a very tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would be very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting process that led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits them once their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. Mike Palij wrote: Like the Just World Hypothesis, many people like to think that a person's achievements reflect solely on their efforts and "talents" while in truth the achievement probably could not have been made without the assistance/input of a large number of people (just watch the ending credits of a movie to get a sense of how many people need to be involved in that enterprise). Miguel Roig-Reardon wrote: >Speaking of people with amazing abilities, >check out this kid: >Bluejay: the mind of a child prodigy: >http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7186319n. An extraordinary talent. What places this kid in a different category from other child musical prodigies (he turns a page of a Beethoven sonata upside down and plays the music backwards on sight) is his prodigious spontaneous composing talent. Well worth checking this one out. Thanks, Miguel. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org --------------------------------------------- From: Joan Warmbold <jwarm...@oakton.edu> Subject: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 13:12:44 -0600 (CST) Thanks for your book recommendation Carol--sounds very interesting if not upsetting. Two books I would highly recommend (or have I already--yikes) are: Talent Code by Coyle--incredible book on the hot spots around the globe that have produced extraordinary numbers of very gifted and highly motivated children in soccer, the arts, tennis, etc. And the source of these high numbers of gifted children/young adults is not genetic folks. http://www.thesimplerlife.net/2010/05/22/book-review-the-talent-code/ The second book that's a must read is "Safe Patients, Smart Hospitals." Peter Pronovost. A review is below--and I now will only go to a hospital that uses the team and check-list system described in this book if I need care for any type of serious health issue. http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781594630644,00.html Hmmm. . . this is ringing too many bells so sorry for the redundancy--but they are really good! Would love to hear from others recommended good reads! Joan Joan (Warmbold) Boggs Professor of Psychology Oakton Community College jwarm...@oakton.edu -------------------------------------- From: Jim Clark <j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca> Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 13:41:10 -0600 Hi One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's a passage from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. "The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. Soccer is the one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early enough. Many of the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very poor backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would be a very tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would be very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting process that led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits them once their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca From: Mike Palij <m...@nyu.edu> Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 16:26:09 -0500 On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 11:41:44 -0800, Jim Clark wrote in response to Joan Warmbold's recommendation of the "Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle: >Hi >One of the "hot spots" mentioned is Brazil and soccer players. Here's a >passage from a site celebrating Brazilian soccer. > >"The majority of the people living in Brazil are in deep poverty. Soccer is the >one ticket out of that lifestyle if the talent is learned early enough. Many of >the popular soccer players on the Brazil soccer team came from very poor >backgrounds, learning soccer at a very young age." > >The emerging superstars, relatively numerous at the star level, would be a >very tiny proportion of all the poor kids playing soccer in Brazil. I would be >very surprised if genes did not play some part in the radical sorting process >that led some few to stardom and the rest to whatever miserable fate awaits >them once their dreams of glory are shattered by reality. Jim's comments triggered my memory for why the Dominican Republic (cited on the website as an example of a source of "talent") produces such extraordinary baseball players. It's not a pretty picture, similar to what Jim describes for the pool in Brazil, but is given in more detail in the following article: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1028-25.htm I am frequently confused when a person uses the word "talent" because it is not clear what they mean by it. Often it is a fundamental attribution error, that is, it seems to be more valid to explain a person's behavior by focusing on dispositional variables (e.g., "native intelligence", "native skill", "heart", desire or motivation or other personality or person-based variables instead of (a) the environment in which the behavior is observed or an individual-environment interaction and/or (b) a history of training and development under a number of wise and intelligent mentors). Like the Just World Hypothesis, many people like to think that a person's achievements reflect solely on their efforts and "talents" while in truth the achievement probably could not have been made without the assistance/input of a large number of people (just watch the ending credits of a movie to get a sense of how many people need to be involved in that enterprise). -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --------------------- From: Joan Warmbold <jwarm...@oakton.edu> Subject: Re: Book Recommendations Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:56:17 -0600 Daniel Coyle makes a convincing case for otherwise. He noted over and over again the so-called hot beds had two crucial elements: a) a person who provided inspiration, or in his words, "ignition,"; and then, b) opportunity for lots of deep practice. What was fairly unique to Brazil was that from the age of 5 to 10 or so the boys play an alternate version of soccer called futsal. It's indoors with a field have the size and so provides the players 6 times the opportunity to practice--i.e., far more intense and engaging. He also cites a study of 157 randomly chosen children who were planning on taking musical lessons and followed them from a few weeks before they started their lessons through high school. The factor that best predicted who would end up at the top were the answers they gave to the question, "How long do you plan to play this instrument?" The researcher then organized the answers into three groups: low/medium/high level of and it was the children who had the high level commitment that consistently came out on top. He also notes a number of times that teachers predictions of who will come out on top relative to their apparent gift or talent does not correlate well at all with who does end up at the top. His contention is that kids who are ignited by a role model (Anna Kournikova in Russia; Andruw Jones-correct spelling-from small island of Caracao who each ignited a passion for tennis and baseball, respectively. Jim, your point certainly sounds logical as, with all the competition, how could genetic potential not be part of the equation. But what Coyle does make a very convincing case for is that children's environmental experiences are the most important part of the formula. He does go further to make the case that genetic predisposition is not part of the equation at all, or if so, a very small part. Have you read the entire book? I was impressed with the role of the growth of the myelin tissue that occurs when a child practices intensely for that required 10,000 hours. Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. 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