Mike Palij said:

I admit that I do not understand what Rick is saying below.  If one defines 
ideology in cognitive terms representing concepts and relationships
among them as well as evaluations (e.g., White-Good/Black-Bad), I don't 
understand how one cannot identify the events or experiences
that gave rise to these concepts and evaluations.



RF: Remember, my issue is not with "ideology" but "choice". If events or 
experiences "give rise" to concepts and evaluations, they are not chosen.



MP: It seems to me that Rick might be saying one of the following (or neither 
and/or something completely different):

(1)  In principle, it is impossible to explain why a person or an animal makes 
a particular choice because one cannot separate the effects of (a) innate 
factors (nature), (b) experiential factors (nurture, and (c) the interaction of 
innate factors with experiential factors.  This just seems like a bizarre 
position to me but I grant that some might believe it.

RF: Where is the choice in a, b and c? If the cause of the behavior is nature, 
nurture or the interaction between them, none of those involve choice. I am 
saying it is not a choice if it is due entirely to a, b and c. Does a boulder 
choose where it ends up at the bottom of the hill? No, it is entirely due to 
the mass of the boulder (like nature), the shape of the hill (environment) and 
the gravity, friction and intertia (interaction between the two). It doesn't 
choose where it will land based on its innate qualities, the environment and 
the interaction between them; those three factors determine it.

MP: (2)  It is possible to separate the effects of innate factors, experiential 
factors, and their interaction, to mathematically model the effects, and to 
test the model empirically against appropriate data such as those in long-term 
longitudinal studies.  But Rick might assert that even though such activities 
have already been done, their results do not achieve some criterion of 
acceptability, thus, even though we have models of choice behavior, they are 
invalid or useless or [insert your favorite negative comment].



RF: What is the locus of this "choice" behavior? If it is caused entirely by 
nature, nurture and the interaction between them, I don't see any place for a 
choice.

MP: Again, I don't get what Rick's point is.  There also is the issue of 
"conversion" events, such as going from being a Marxist to a neoconservative -- 
somebody explain the genetics of that to me (extra points if the explanation 
doesn't involve Stalin).



RF: So if it isn't genetic, its a choice? What definition of "choice" is that?



Remember, the original context of this thread was an article in which a 
distinction was being made between ideology and other characteristics of a 
person in that ideology was supposedly chosen and the other characteristics 
were not. I am saying there is no empirical evidence that you choose your 
ideology more than you choose any other characteristics of yourself because 
choice is not a testable variable.



Rick



Dr. Rick Froman, Chair
Division of Humanities and Social Sciences
John Brown University
Siloam Springs, AR  72761
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>



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