I read this post and have a question...and maybe I'm not understanding
https correctly, but why is your login PAGE secure?  I wouldn't care if
someone sees an empty page with a prompt for the username and password. 
The post should be secure though...  In other words... can't you have a
page http://www.example.com/login.jsp post to something like
https://www.example.com/login.do (this would be the url in the form tag)
with the actual login action being secure?  My understanding is that on
the post, a secure session will be established and THEN the username and
password will be posted.  Then users would bookmark the log-in page as a
non-secure page, and still be able to login without any funky
work-around.  

If this understanding is correct, then if someone bookmars a secure
page, they should get redirected to the login page anyway since they
need to login first.

Thanks,

Kevin Williams  


On Mon, 2003-11-17 at 08:15, Andrew Mottaz wrote:
> > On 11/17/2003 06:32 AM Andrew Mottaz wrote:
> >>> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla.  However, there aren't very many
> >>> developers who like the idea of allowing you to hang yourself :).
> >>> 
> >> Thanks much for the tip -- I have to disagree about this not being a
> >> necessary change.  There are plenty of apps where people browse without
> >>  a secure connection, but have to log in to perform some functions.
> >> Users like to bookmark pages -- why should I force them to bookmark only
> >> non-secure pages? Giving a developer control over how session cookies
> >> function is better than forcing a hack where you have to always redirect
> >> to a non-secure page to establish the session.  If you are writing an
> >> application where the session data is so sensitive that you have to
> >> protect against session hijacking, you should know about the difference
> >> between secure and non-secure cookies.  I've got no problem if the
> >> default behavior uses secure cookies when ever possible, but change the
> >> "Session uses cookie" parameter to have a flag that allows session
> >> cookies to always be non-secure.
> > 
> > Andrew,
> > what reason is there for preventing users from bookmarking secure pages?
> > I don't follow you there.
> > 
> > Also, as far as I can see, the java community has decided that once you
> > start a secure session, you should stay in a secure session, for various
> > security reasons. Are you doing a secure login and then redirecting back
> > to http afterwards?
> > 
> > Adam
> 
> 
> Hi Adam,
> 
> If a user bookmarks a secure page, and then tries to browse a non-secure
> page, the session is lost.
> 
> The decision to keep a session secure iff the FIRST access is secure does
> not make sense to me.
> 
> Imagine the following scenario -- A web site has different levels of user
> access.  The difference between the users is what products they can see.
> The data is not terribly sensitive.  However, the log-in should be secure
> for several reasons -- 1) For the users perception -- people do not like the
> "This form is not secure" message when logging in.  2)  Capturing a user id
> and password is worse than hijacking one session.
> 
> Now -- I have a web site with hundreds of pages of product data, and
> thousands of users.  Many of these users bookmark the page
> https://www.example.com/jsp/login.jsp
> 
> So -- if I want to allow users to bookmark this page, they will create a
> secure session.  When they then browse the pages, I have two options:
> 
> 1)  Keep all of the links secure
> 
> 2) Redirect them to a non-secure page (To establish a non-secure session),
> and then send them back to the secure log-in page.
> 
> 
> Option 1 is unacceptable -- the overhead of having all of these connections
> encrypted is not a viable option.
> 
> Option 2 is a hacky workaround -- cookies have a Secure=yes flag so that it
> can be set and un-set as appropriate.
> 
> 
> Also -- this is the standard for Tomcat -- not Java --( it may be in the
> servlet/jsp spec -- but if so, it is a new addition).  Other Java based app
> servers treat this differently.
> 
> Finally -- I know that ASP used to have the OPPOSITE implementation --
> session cookies were always non-secure.  This is worse than Tomcat, but both
> are wrong.  The developer needs to make the decision about what is
> appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> Again -- Just my 2 cents -- Is there a security issue I'm missing?  If the
> argument is that you should NEVER go from secure to non-secure, the Tomcat
> solution does not assure that. It only means that you have to go non-secure,
> secure, and then non-secure.  That seems quite arbitrary to me.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> --
> Andrew Mottaz
> Site 9 :: Internet Business Solutions
> 116 W. Illinois, Ste 6E
> Chicago, Illinois 60610
> 312.670.8469
> www.site9.net 
> 
> 
> 
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