George, I understand and agree with most of what you say, but the sailboat analogy is a bad one.
I can sail a boat alone. I can't have a QSO without someone else on the same mode. The vacuum FT8 creates is the problem. 73, Tony K4QE On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 2:26 PM, GEORGE WALLNER <aa...@atlanticbb.net> wrote: > Dave, > For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may > lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8 > is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing. > Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always > some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been > there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not be > a surprise. > Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO. > I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way > outperform sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out > there as before. They love sailing, not just getting there. > > C U on CW, > > George. > AA7JV > > > > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500 > <daraym...@iowatelecom.net> wrote: > >> IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW (alas). >> Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them are virtually >> meaningless. The guy with a backyard vertical, reasonable radial system, >> and 100w can easily accomplish on topband (and get equal DXCC credit) what >> has historically taken a significant effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, >> and receive antennas. As for the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to >> this mode with the improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively >> little skill on the part of the operators. For me personally, it is >> disappointing to watch it all unfold. But unfold, it will. 73. . >> .Dave, W0FLS >> >> -----Original Message----- From: k1zm--- via Topband >> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM >> To: topband@contesting.com >> Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is Upon >> us! >> >> Hello Gang >> I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately, but >> I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking place right >> before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its possible >> implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls read on. >> >> I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current >> dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a real >> trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success doing so - >> so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert. Norbert has managed to make >> quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on Topband and we all very >> much appreciate his efforts - well done Norbert - thank you! >> >> So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion on >> Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and its >> possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!. >> >> On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in his >> grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including NO3M and >> me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS may have been >> another and a few more as well. I also heard some EU stations in there >> calling among the NA stations. >> >> About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but QRNN >> on his side prevented a legitimate qso. I heard him fine but I know he did >> not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so over ON4KST >> noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged no NA or EU qso's >> on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun came up." >> >> The next night Norbert came on ON4KST chat and announced that he was >> going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta trials >> following its release by K1JT. I am told that the dx'pedition version of >> FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1 Dx'pedition. >> >> Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is >> fully conceived including: >> >> 1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8 required >> QSO elements >> 2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the FOX >> (in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI) >> 3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be >> possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any >> dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY. >> >> So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m >> and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM. >> >> Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how to >> operate this new flavor of FT8. It is a bit tricky and I invite anyone >> reading this who may be interested to take a look - because Dx'pedition >> mode uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must configure things >> exactly right - or it just does not function as one might expect >> traditional FT8 to function in order to complete qso's. >> >> Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked a >> couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did not pay >> close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late in the game >> to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side. >> >> So what is going on here exactly? And why did I choose to make this post >> to Topband? >> >> The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past >> summer on 6M during the Sporadic E season. I happen to like to work 6M E >> during the summer and was all set around the end of June for what I hoped >> would be a great E season on 6M CW into Europe. I worked a couple of >> stations on CW in late June but during the first or second week of July, >> K1JT released the production version of FT8 and almost immediately everyone >> realized its potential (particularly those in the Mid and Far Western USA) >> - where it was immediately called a "GAME CHANGER" by K7JA and others on >> the Left Coast. >> >> >> Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single CW >> DX station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season after >> that - everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it WORKED so >> well on 6M - even on E skip paths. And since I did not have FT8 capability >> - I was TOTALLY SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of Dx'ing - BUMMER! >> >> >> So how does this apply to Topband? Pls read on..... >> >> >> Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and Norbert >> was back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until around 0320z - >> again on FT8 - in dx'pedition mode. By now, most of us had downloaded the >> dx'pedition mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of figured out how to do >> the parameter settings correctly - so quite a few QSO's ensued. >> >> >> I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a few >> others. >> >> >> Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT >> still has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode software >> - because the promise of 300 qso's per hour is not yet possible - but I >> think the throughput rate will one day improve materially. (:Last night >> the throughput was SO SLOW that some suggested to Norbert that he stop >> using dx'pedition mode in favor of the more reliable current release of FT8 >> that is on the air today.) >> >> >> Norbert also elected to stay on FT8 - despite many requests from those >> constrained by CW only capability to move over to CW mode - so those >> without FT8 basically sat on the sidelines last night watching all of this >> transpire. My thoughts at the time were - "Here we go again! This is 6M E >> season "DEJA VUE all over again - the 6M E migration to Ft8 was now >> happening all over again - but this time on 160M - and it suggests a real >> possibility of it becoming the choice of major dxpeditions going forward - >> meaning - FT8 is likely to be used on 160m far more regularly going forward >> and CW mode utilized much less perhaps (maybe!). My crystal ball is no >> better than yours - but if FT8 dx'pedition mode gets perfected by K1JT and >> becomes more EFFICIENT one day than CW mode - you can be SURE that it will >> become very popular and it will get used far more (at the expense of CW) by >> the rarer Dx'peditions when they choose to QSY to Topband! >> >> >> You can take that to the BANK! >> >> At one point, Norbert who was on CHAT all night long - lamented some of >> the comments he was seeing by others on CHAT. Basically, while he was more >> than courteous, it was clear that he felt like "HEY! I am the FOX >> here.....I get to choose to operate whatever mode I think will work - and >> those sitting in their comfortable chairs back at home (and not sitting in >> the heat here on the shores of Lake Malawi - really do not get to decide >> this.!! Again, I am the FOX here.......) Basically, Norbert was right on >> here - IMHO.... >> >> Some more observations: >> >> 1) Experimental FT8 qso's are not completing reliably as they should - at >> least not yet all the time - for example: K8KZ was clearly seeing 7Q7EI >> calling him on his screen for at least 20 mins before the software linked >> up at each end to sent the RR73 message - the signal that the QSO was >> complete. >> >> And Norbert was clearly "seeing" K8KS for the same 20 mins - before they >> linked up to finalize and log the QSO. I had similar problems on 160M when >> working Norbert - so it is clear that K1JT has some more work to do,. But, >> we do have to realize that this is still only a BETA/experimental release - >> and YES - it does have some glitches and bugs yet to be ironed out. >> >> But it does work (after a fashion) and I am sure it will get better - and >> WHEN IT DOES become a fully functional PRODUCTION RELEASE, I do think we >> will witness some MAJOR operating changes going forward when working future >> DX'peditions and even when casual dx'ing on 160M - which is happening every >> night on 1840 today. I am seeing Wal W8LRL most every night - and am >> dabbling in it myself as is my XYL Miriam VY2HH - so old dawgs (like me) >> are being forced (sometimes kicking and screaming) to learn new tricks. >> >> One final comment: >> >> This all took place on 1836 and I think on 3569 down on 80m these past >> few nights. Traditional FT8 (according to the ARRL 160m bandplan) takes >> place on 1840. So I am hopeful that the migration to the new mode >> continues to take place in an orderly fashion because FT8 and CW really >> will not mix well - should FT8 start showing up below 1830 that will cause >> problems - (just my opinion) - but reality I think. >> >> So - I think that is the lot for now. Not much more to report - but for >> sure - "A change is coming to Dx'ing on 160M - there is NO DOUBT about it - >> I do not think this is a passing FAD. "DIGI-WIGI" or its other name >> "JINGLE BELLS" looks like it is here to stay!!! >> >> 73 JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM >> >> >> Jeff Briggs >> DXing on the Edge: The Thrill of 160 Meters >> Available worldwide through BookBaby, Array Solutions, DX Engineering, >> Royal Society of Great Britain, & Amazon >> >> >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> _________________ >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband >> > > _________________ > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband > _________________ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband