************* The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org ************ Hi TROM must have been working for me because I have been doing an analysis of what is real to me concerning time and incidents stored in the mind.
The first thing to say is yes there is a timetrack the house I lived in before this one and all the incidents concerned with it definitely lie on a time sequence, things do appear to lie sequentially in time. However, looking at a scene from that timetrack what I see is that time does not come into it at all. Each scene is a universe unto itself containing everything including time but what I call time is actually change, that is what I am starting to see anyway. As I run the process observing the scene, finding an object to run level 2 process on, time has got nothing to do with it, when an incident or memory of something pops up it doesn't matter when it happened, it's just something in the scene that pops up to observe, know, understand and then it's gone. It's seems to me as far as my understanding goes is that what I call time in my mind is caused by not taking responsibility for these items that pop up, causing a separation I call time. Blame, shame, regret and so on cause a separation in the mind, like 2 poles of a battery or alternator. There is me the observer Now! looking at an item that appears to be in the past, between these 2 items there is charge, harmful energy generated, when I look the item over there is a discharge but only if I take responsibility for that by understanding how I was responsible for it. I know that time for many people in other spiritual practices is important in their particular processes, earlier similar, postulate off and so on, that is not what I see. A scene where I trod on a nail when I was 6 years old has nothing to do with treading on a nail when I am 30 years old, they are two totally different scenes or universes and are not connected in the way an earlier similar is in Dianetics for instance. Anyway, please don't take anything I say as fixed, I am always amenable to change my view, just some things I am starting to see and understand, I will say that TROM is giving me a much different view about time in the scenes I am observing so hopefully that is progress. Best Mike What I am seeing regarding time in the mind is real to me, I have observed many things that have pointed that way as I have come along this time track, it's all here, we only need the right process to start to dissolve the illusion of time in the mind. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete McLaughlin" <reso6...@verizon.net> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [TROM1] Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 14 > ************* > The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org > ************ > Hi Jag > > Your questions are good but you left out decisions/postulates. > > The scale is: > > Beingnesses (run the incident from the viewpoint of everyone involved in > the > incident or who witnessed the incident.) > > Decisions/postulates (like deciding to never do that again or accepting > the > postulate of the winning valence) > > Emotions > > Efforts (means body sensations, pressures and pain) > > Mystery (whatever you are supressing so you do not have to look at it.) > > Evil intentions (you assume the other people have) > > Running a Dianetic incident with an emeter will run an incident until > there > is no more body reaction or emotion but could leave the decisions and > beings > in the incident untouched. This may be why they have to run BT's > (beingnesses ) later. > > Dianetics runs incidents earlier similar on some content of the incident > or > body sensation. > > Trom is much better in that it runs chains by following the postulates in > opposition. > > I find in working level 5 that i put up my postulate and the other > postulate > out there opposing me and start to get an incident. i emerse myself in > the > efforts sensations and emotions and look for the postulates or decisions > and > who was opposing me. As i continue to do that i find that first > impression > of the scene changes and i am running different emotions or points of > view. > I keep doing this until the importance reduces to nothing and i put up the > postulates again to see if i can get anything new. My impression is that > some times i am getting different points of view in the same incident and > sometimes i am moving to a different incident. > > By the way i am looking for the earliest time of a trauma on these > postulates in opposition and expect that to occur before universes so that > it will not have visual or audio content, just effort, emotion, postulates > and beingnesses. I expect the oldest incident to only have beingnesses > and > the postulates of the to know package with no efforts or emotions > involved. > > Keep on TROMing > > Pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jag" <jago...@tiscali.it> > To: <trom@lists.newciv.org> > Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: [TROM1] Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 14 > > >> ************* > >> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >> ************ >> It could be that you don't "timebreak" correctly what comes into your >> mind. I suggest you to do this: >> write on a piece of paper this words : "people" , "places" , "things >> " , "times" and "event". Then when you timebreak >> find in what you have in your minf the exact people involved , the >> exact things involved , the exact time this happen , and the excat >> event. >> If you find the truth it vanishes , if you left a lie it will keep >> staying into your mind. >> hope this helps you. >> another trick I use is to write down on a sheet of paper all that >> comes into my mind when timebreaking.I think it is more effective. >> If you write you can see and confront what you write,if you do it >> only inside your mind you could fail and miss something. >> After finishing writing i trow the paper into the wastebin. >> good work >> alex. >> >> >> Il giorno 15/gen/10, alle ore 13:00, trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org ha >> scritto: >> >>> Send Trom mailing list submissions to >>> trom@lists.newciv.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> trom-ow...@lists.newciv.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Trom digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 (jag) >>> 2. Re: Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 (Mickel) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:39:05 +0100 >>> From: jag <jago...@tiscali.it> >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 >>> To: trom@lists.newciv.org >>> Message-ID: <1d54b5bc-b04c-4592-b2d0-89924b2db...@tiscali.it> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >>> >>> Hi Mike, >>> I think you are making a milkshake of Trom, Knowledgisme and SCN. >>> I could suggest you to add some sugar,some raisins one banana , a >>> spoon of honey . >>> Wait,wait wait! I have been in SCN , then I left it.I have studied >>> Knowledgisme and after I am exercising with Trom. >>> The spiritual Team is a definition of Alan C. Walter,and is his own >>> point of view about the matter. >>> If you have done Knowledgisme, stop there to clear what does it means >>> to Holographically Define . >>> Alan C. Walter has introduced many new definitions : the life force >>> particles for example.And I have found workable just clear that >>> definition >>> with his material.My impression is that you check level 2. >>> Hope this is of help. >>> Trom works if done correctly. >>> regards >>> alex. >>> >>> Il giorno 14/gen/10, alle ore 13:00, trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org ha >>> scritto: >>> >>>> Send Trom mailing list submissions to >>>> trom@lists.newciv.org >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> trom-ow...@lists.newciv.org >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Trom digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: 3 Items. (Mickel) >>>> 2. Re: 3 Items. (David Pelly) >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:37:36 -0000 >>>> From: "Mickel" <mickel1...@blueyonder.co.uk> >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>> Message-ID: <1c0fc5e7c54240ce9272415612cb1...@everest> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Hi again David >>>> Sorry to bug you man but when I am after something to do with the >>>> mind or >>>> spirituality I got a bloody awful persistence, I don't ever give up. >>>> >>>> First of all, good luck on Level 3, let us know if you come across >>>> anything >>>> interesting or any info you may wish to impart, I expect you may be >>>> like me >>>> in that I use any process appropriate for the job in hand. >>>> I got a lot of good things from Scientology for instance that still >>>> come in >>>> very useful. >>>> >>>> Anyway, here's what I was after, the word "Permeate", I got that >>>> from Alan >>>> Walter, Knowledgism, he used it quite a bit but I forgot it. >>>> >>>> The word "See" or "visualise" was too limited when I tried to >>>> explain how I >>>> see a scene from the past and then it came to me (after a few >>>> hours) (I >>>> think my Spiritual Teammates are getting a bit lazy), you see what >>>> I mean? a >>>> scene from the past is a whole picture or rather a whole universe, >>>> Dennis >>>> explains this in one of his talks, instead of just viewing it I can >>>> permeate >>>> it and know it that way. >>>> >>>> Right, that's it, thanks very much mate for helping me out by >>>> acknowledging >>>> my messages on that, I can use that. >>>> Best >>>> Mike >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "David Pelly" <dpe...@execulink.com> >>>> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 7:37 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>> >>>> >>>>> ************* >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>> ************ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>> >>>>> I sort of quit TROM for now. >>>>> >>>>> I got stuck in level four. >>>>> >>>>> So let's say I am at level three. >>>>> >>>>> And I am using time breaking on a regular basis. >>>>> >>>>> I like it. >>>>> >>>>> David. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:03:05 -0500 >>>> From: David Pelly <dpe...@execulink.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>> To: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>> Message-ID: <94e162982cc588115f3f3d1c3ecdb...@execulink.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed >>>> >>>> >>>> You are welcome Mike. >>>> >>>> I am very persistent also. To the point of being a pain in the ass. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> On 13-Jan-10, at 5:37 PM, Mickel wrote: >>>> >>>>> ************* >>>>> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>> ************ >>>>> Hi again David >>>>> Sorry to bug you man but when I am after something to do with the >>>>> mind >>>>> or >>>>> spirituality I got a bloody awful persistence, I don't ever give up. >>>>> >>>>> First of all, good luck on Level 3, let us know if you come across >>>>> anything >>>>> interesting or any info you may wish to impart, I expect you may be >>>>> like me >>>>> in that I use any process appropriate for the job in hand. >>>>> I got a lot of good things from Scientology for instance that still >>>>> come in >>>>> very useful. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, here's what I was after, the word "Permeate", I got that >>>>> from >>>>> Alan >>>>> Walter, Knowledgism, he used it quite a bit but I forgot it. >>>>> >>>>> The word "See" or "visualise" was too limited when I tried to >>>>> explain >>>>> how I >>>>> see a scene from the past and then it came to me (after a few >>>>> hours) (I >>>>> think my Spiritual Teammates are getting a bit lazy), you see what I >>>>> mean? a >>>>> scene from the past is a whole picture or rather a whole universe, >>>>> Dennis >>>>> explains this in one of his talks, instead of just viewing it I can >>>>> permeate >>>>> it and know it that way. >>>>> >>>>> Right, that's it, thanks very much mate for helping me out by >>>>> acknowledging >>>>> my messages on that, I can use that. >>>>> Best >>>>> Mike >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "David Pelly" <dpe...@execulink.com> >>>>> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 7:37 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ************* >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>>> ************ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> I sort of quit TROM for now. >>>>>> >>>>>> I got stuck in level four. >>>>>> >>>>>> So let's say I am at level three. >>>>>> >>>>>> And I am using time breaking on a regular basis. >>>>>> >>>>>> I like it. >>>>>> >>>>>> David. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Trom mailing list >>>>> Trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Trom mailing list >>>> Trom@lists.newciv.org >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> >>>> >>>> End of Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 >>>> ************************************ >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:12:26 -0000 >>> From: "Mickel" <mickel1...@blueyonder.co.uk> >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 >>> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>> Message-ID: <f6ad4e38ca8647c9a82ac8efe1750...@everest> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Hi Alex >>> Thanks for your advice, I do tend to deviate all over the place at >>> times. >>> >>> What I was trying to get at was worth communicating about though, >>> it did >>> give me a deeper understanding about working with Trom and scenes >>> from the >>> past. >>> >>> Why I made a silly remark about Spiritual Teammates I don't knon just >>> something I have read about in the past of which I have no reality >>> about at >>> all. >>> >>> Level 2 certainly is working for me it certainly brings up a lot of >>> charge, >>> yawning like mad at times. >>> Thanks. >>> Best >>> Mike >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "jag" <jago...@tiscali.it> >>> To: <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 12:39 PM >>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 >>> >>> >>>> ************* >>>> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >>>> ************ >>>> Hi Mike, >>>> I think you are making a milkshake of Trom, Knowledgisme and SCN. >>>> I could suggest you to add some sugar,some raisins one banana , a >>>> spoon of honey . >>>> Wait,wait wait! I have been in SCN , then I left it.I have studied >>>> Knowledgisme and after I am exercising with Trom. >>>> The spiritual Team is a definition of Alan C. Walter,and is his own >>>> point of view about the matter. >>>> If you have done Knowledgisme, stop there to clear what does it means >>>> to Holographically Define . >>>> Alan C. Walter has introduced many new definitions : the life force >>>> particles for example.And I have found workable just clear that >>>> definition >>>> with his material.My impression is that you check level 2. >>>> Hope this is of help. >>>> Trom works if done correctly. >>>> regards >>>> alex. >>>> >>>> Il giorno 14/gen/10, alle ore 13:00, trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org ha >>>> scritto: >>>> >>>>> Send Trom mailing list submissions to >>>>> trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>> trom-requ...@lists.newciv.org >>>>> >>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>> trom-ow...@lists.newciv.org >>>>> >>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>> than "Re: Contents of Trom digest..." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Today's Topics: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Re: 3 Items. (Mickel) >>>>> 2. Re: 3 Items. (David Pelly) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Message: 1 >>>>> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:37:36 -0000 >>>>> From: "Mickel" <mickel1...@blueyonder.co.uk> >>>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>>> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>>> Message-ID: <1c0fc5e7c54240ce9272415612cb1...@everest> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>>> reply-type=original >>>>> >>>>> Hi again David >>>>> Sorry to bug you man but when I am after something to do with the >>>>> mind or >>>>> spirituality I got a bloody awful persistence, I don't ever give up. >>>>> >>>>> First of all, good luck on Level 3, let us know if you come across >>>>> anything >>>>> interesting or any info you may wish to impart, I expect you may be >>>>> like me >>>>> in that I use any process appropriate for the job in hand. >>>>> I got a lot of good things from Scientology for instance that still >>>>> come in >>>>> very useful. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, here's what I was after, the word "Permeate", I got that >>>>> from Alan >>>>> Walter, Knowledgism, he used it quite a bit but I forgot it. >>>>> >>>>> The word "See" or "visualise" was too limited when I tried to >>>>> explain how I >>>>> see a scene from the past and then it came to me (after a few >>>>> hours) (I >>>>> think my Spiritual Teammates are getting a bit lazy), you see what >>>>> I mean? a >>>>> scene from the past is a whole picture or rather a whole universe, >>>>> Dennis >>>>> explains this in one of his talks, instead of just viewing it I can >>>>> permeate >>>>> it and know it that way. >>>>> >>>>> Right, that's it, thanks very much mate for helping me out by >>>>> acknowledging >>>>> my messages on that, I can use that. >>>>> Best >>>>> Mike >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "David Pelly" <dpe...@execulink.com> >>>>> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 7:37 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ************* >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>>> ************ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> I sort of quit TROM for now. >>>>>> >>>>>> I got stuck in level four. >>>>>> >>>>>> So let's say I am at level three. >>>>>> >>>>>> And I am using time breaking on a regular basis. >>>>>> >>>>>> I like it. >>>>>> >>>>>> David. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 2 >>>>> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:03:05 -0500 >>>>> From: David Pelly <dpe...@execulink.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>>> To: The Resolution of Mind list <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>>> Message-ID: <94e162982cc588115f3f3d1c3ecdb...@execulink.com> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You are welcome Mike. >>>>> >>>>> I am very persistent also. To the point of being a pain in the ass. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 13-Jan-10, at 5:37 PM, Mickel wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ************* >>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>>> ************ >>>>>> Hi again David >>>>>> Sorry to bug you man but when I am after something to do with the >>>>>> mind >>>>>> or >>>>>> spirituality I got a bloody awful persistence, I don't ever give >>>>>> up. >>>>>> >>>>>> First of all, good luck on Level 3, let us know if you come across >>>>>> anything >>>>>> interesting or any info you may wish to impart, I expect you may be >>>>>> like me >>>>>> in that I use any process appropriate for the job in hand. >>>>>> I got a lot of good things from Scientology for instance that still >>>>>> come in >>>>>> very useful. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, here's what I was after, the word "Permeate", I got that >>>>>> from >>>>>> Alan >>>>>> Walter, Knowledgism, he used it quite a bit but I forgot it. >>>>>> >>>>>> The word "See" or "visualise" was too limited when I tried to >>>>>> explain >>>>>> how I >>>>>> see a scene from the past and then it came to me (after a few >>>>>> hours) (I >>>>>> think my Spiritual Teammates are getting a bit lazy), you see >>>>>> what I >>>>>> mean? a >>>>>> scene from the past is a whole picture or rather a whole universe, >>>>>> Dennis >>>>>> explains this in one of his talks, instead of just viewing it I can >>>>>> permeate >>>>>> it and know it that way. >>>>>> >>>>>> Right, that's it, thanks very much mate for helping me out by >>>>>> acknowledging >>>>>> my messages on that, I can use that. >>>>>> Best >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "David Pelly" <dpe...@execulink.com> >>>>>> To: "The Resolution of Mind list" <trom@lists.newciv.org> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 7:37 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [TROM1] 3 Items. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> ************* >>>>>>> The following message is relayed to you by trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>>>> ************ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I sort of quit TROM for now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I got stuck in level four. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So let's say I am at level three. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I am using time breaking on a regular basis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I like it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Trom mailing list >>>>>> Trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Trom mailing list >>>>> Trom@lists.newciv.org >>>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> End of Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 >>>>> ************************************ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Trom mailing list >>>> Trom@lists.newciv.org >>>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---------- >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.139/2619 - Release Date: >>> 01/13/10 >>> 19:35:00 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Trom mailing list >>> Trom@lists.newciv.org >>> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom >>> >>> >>> End of Trom Digest, Vol 66, Issue 14 >>> ************************************ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Trom mailing list >> Trom@lists.newciv.org >> http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom > > _______________________________________________ > Trom mailing list > Trom@lists.newciv.org > http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.143/2624 - Release Date: 01/15/10 12:47:00 _______________________________________________ Trom mailing list Trom@lists.newciv.org http://lists.newciv.org/mailman/listinfo/trom
