One of the tenets of Christian theology is that the canon of scripture is closed (as mentioned in Jude 3), and that there will be no more revelation of the kind Joseph Smith purports to have received, i.e., revelation that reveals anything more than the Bible reveals, contradicts the Bible, or reveals any new doctrines that were not aready revealed in the Bible. The prime test of anything anyone says they received from God is that it has to be in accord with the existing canon. If it contradicts scripture, or teaches a different gospel, then it can't be from God.
If you, or anyone, believes there has been such revelation, outside of the Bible, that changes or adds to the canon of scripture and that has been accepted by the christian church as canonical, then please bring it to my attention. If there had been any, then wouldn't we have added books to the Bible containing these sacred new doctrines and changes to existing doctrine?
In fact, that is exactly what JS has done! The BoM is even subtitled "Another Testament of Jesus Christ". And, only by disregarding the statement in Jude 3 that the gospel was delivered "once for all" to the saints, can the LDS get away with trying to add new revelation to the already existing and closed canon of scripture. It is so unfortunate that so many have been blinded to these simple truths.
Now, you know that I am talking about revelation that changes or adds to the gospel, not personal revelation that believers receive from the HS with respect to their personal walks. And personal revelation may even lead to great events in Christian history, but they STILL must be in accord with the existing canon of scripture.
Think about this: The OT covers from the beginning (creation) to about 400 years before the cross. The NT covers from the birth of Jesus to the end of the world. That pretty much tells it all. Why would we need any additional revelation (of the gospel changing kind) for the period in between? Jesus told us what we needed to do to be saved and have eternal life, and the apostles taught it. Why does that need to be enhanced? What could anyone possibly say that could change or improve that?
Perry
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:50:47 -0600
Perry,
Well we certainly agree on THAT! The poor mormons are dupes of JS at
best--may God save them by His mercy.
However, I wonder if you cannot believe that the Lord could give further
revelation in this day via the Holy Spirit which IS be in agreement with
scriptures? I believe there are some on TT who believe He does.
Izzy
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P. Locke
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 3:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
Izzy, please stick with me and read my entire post.
I do not believe that Joseph Smith received any revelations from God.
Either he made them up and subsequently came to believe them (perhaps in
order to keep from being lynched by the large number of followers his
little
prank had collected), or he was delusional, or his revelation was from
Satan.
It is a known fact that he dabbled with divination. Is it more than
coincidental that he was a "peeper", that is, claimed to be able to find
buried treasure by looking into a "seer" stone (his arrest record for
bilking farmers using this method is recorded and has been published for
review), and that he also used two "seer stones" to "interpret" the
"gold
plates"? Why do the LDS overlook this?
Is it coincidental that the "translated" BoM contains entire chapters
and
verses copied verbatim from the KJV? The book is obviously a fraud, and
there are other extant works that predate the BoM that are based on the
premis that ancient Hebrews populated the Americas, and are the
ancesters of
the American indians. Even BH Roberts, a very prominent LDS historian
acknowledges that enough written material existed prior to the
"translation"
of the BoM to have provided it's content through plaigerism. Why do the
LDS
overlook this?
It is a known fact that JS and his brother Hyrum were both 33rd
degree
Freemasons. I do not know how much you know about Freemasonry, but they
use
secret handshakes, signs, passwords, penalties, and incantations in
their
ceremonies. JS shanghaied the secret ceremonies from the Freemasons and
made
it a part of the LDS "temple endowments". Since Freemasonry is
considered
occultic, Mormonism, which uses the same occultic rites, must also be
occultic. Why do the LDS overlook this?
Read Doctrine and Covenants number 132, about adultery and polygamy, and
keep in the back of your mind that while these revelations were being
"revealed" to JS, he was engaged in adultery. ("No man knows My
History", by
Fawn Brodie.) It is so ludicrous, that JS even claims that God told him
that
if his wife, Emma Smith, did not embrace polygamy that he would destroy
her.
JS obvioulsy used the redefinition of adultery, and "revelations" about
polygamy to justify his own adulterous tendencies. This, my dear
believer
friend, is against the Holy Scripture, and was only for the benefit of
saving JS from being an adulterer in the "church" (I hate to besmirch
the
word) that he created. Not only did he have the audacity to contradict
the
Holy Scripture, but to claim that this is a "new covenant" with God.
That is
blasphemous, evil, and sinful at it's very core. This alone should raise
a
red flag to the LDS, but since they place more importance on the
heretical
works of JS that the Holy Scripture, they have gone astray. There is not
a
single LDS member today that will tell you that polygamy is a sin. They
will
only state that "we don't practice polygamy today", but they have to
beleive
it is still a new covenant with God, otherwise they are not true LDS
believers. Why do the lds overlook this?
So, I believe that God does reveal many things to individual believers
on an
individual and personal basis, but I do not believe that he has
delivered
any revelation upon which new doctrine can be based, or that would
change
anything that has already been written by the Apostles. That is what I
mean
when I say that the BoM, D&C, do not add one iota to the gospel,
regardless
of what the LDS claim. The gospel is Holy, perfect, and complete as
written.
I'll tell you why the LDS overlooks these things. Because to cast doubt
on
the church means to 1) be disfellowshipped from the "one true church",
2) to
be castigated and looked down upon by all of your family and close
friends,
and 3) to lose the opportunity to become a God. Becoming a god is the
very
thing that Satan's pride caused him to want, and caused his fall; Eve's
pride caused her to want to be god, and also caused her fall, and the
LDS'
pride causes them to want to be gods today, and is thier fall. And,
since
Satan is the father of lies, what more can I say?
Izzy, hope this helps clarify the kind of "revelation" that JS
received. If
you are looking for a word to classify this type of revelation, lets use
"lies".
Perry
>From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
>Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 14:46:47 -0600
>
>Perry, Thanks. But I would still like to have a more concise definition
>from you now that you have said there is "personal" vs other kinds of
>revelation, if you don't mind. This might help us to define the kind of
>"revelation" the mormons claim to have. Izzy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P.
Locke
>Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:28 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
>
>Izzy, I was waiting for you to ask that or a similar question. Thank
>you.
>
>Of course the HS has given me information. He has convicted me of my
>sin. He
>has shown me my need for a saviour. He has answered prayer by leading
me
>to
>the right path...all of a personal nature.
>
>But he has never told me that all Christian denominations are an
>abomination. He has never told me to go find some "gold" tablets and
>"translate" them. He has never told me to start a new church that is
>contrary to scripture. He has never told me to marry many wives, and
>that to
>not do so would damn me. He has never told my wife to shut up about
>polygamy
>or He would destory her. He has never revealed to me the need for a
>"temple", or told me to steal the secret ceremonies of the Freemasons
>and
>use them as endowments in a temple, or led me to make false prophecies.
>And
>most of all, He has never revealed to me anything that is contrary to
>the
>Holy Scriptures, that would contradict what the Apostles have already
>written in the canon of the NT.
>
>The long and short of it is that there is more than one kind of
>revelation.
>Personal revelation is one thing, and I think that if we are walking in
>the
>spirit we receive such. But, anytime anyone starts out by saying "God
>told
>me...", I become suspicious, especially if what they say God told them
>contradicts the Holy Scriptures.
>
>So, I believe that the HS is active in the world, busy guiding and
>working
>with believers, and this may even lead to large results in the world,
>but I
>do not believe God is revealing new revelation that is undermining his
>own
>church.
>
>How does that appeal to you? It validates your experience regarding
>revelation, but still maintains my point about "new" revelation that
>changes
>what has already been written. But it is all revelation, i.e.,
>information
>from a supernatural source. (BTW, if JS truly did receive revelation
>(information from a supernatural source), and it contradicts scripture,
>then
>whom might we assume is the supernatural force from which this
>infomation
>came? Hmmm.)
>
>Perry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
> >Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:36:53 -0600
> >
> >Perry,
> >
> >Do you mean to tell me that the Holy Spirit has never given you
> >information?
> >Izzy
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P.
>Locke
> >Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 10:05 AM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
> >
> >I don't think I can change the meaning of a word because one person
> >claims
> >to have had a revelation.
> >
> > >From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
> > >Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:19:26 -0600
> > >
> > >Well, then, I've had that myself more than once. I'm sure I'm not
> > >unusual for that! Sure you don't want to define your meaning again?
> >Izzy
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles P.
> >Locke
> > >Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:39 PM
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
> > >
> > >The sense in which I am using revelation is information that comes
to
> >an
> > >
> > >individual by divine or supernatural means. A supernatural
>"revealing"
> > >of
> > >information.
> > >
> > >Perry
> > > >From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Law
> > > >Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:22:49 -0600
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Perry,
> > > >Just for clarification, would you care to define "revelation"?
> > > > Izzy
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:TruthTalk- I AM
> >saying
> > > >that 1) no additional
> > > >revelation beyond the NT is necessary relative to the gospel
>message
> >or
> > > >salvation,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----------
> > > >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that
you
> >may
> > >
> > > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
> > > >http://www.InnGlory.org
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> > >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
>may
> > >know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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> >"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you
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>----------
>"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
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>----------
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