RE: [TruthTalk] Lord of the Sabbath

[ShieldsFamily]

-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lord of the Sabbath   Izzy wrote: > David, You are going to confuse me if you > don't differentiate between whether you are > talking about today (NT times) or OT times. > I assumed you were talking about today. > Are these all going to be trick questions?   LOL.  I did not mean to make it a "trick question."  The fact that you are asking for a designation of "NT times" or "OT times" is revealing that something is not consistent with how you apply the Torah laws to today.   Do you accept the idea of two covenants?  Do you recognize that the Ten Commandments are part of the Old Covenant for OT times and not part of the New Covenant for NT times?   David, I no longer practice regs in the OT that have been fulfilled by the atoning Blood of Christ.  Yes, I accept 2 covenants. No I don’t recognize that the 10 commandments are null and void now, in NT times. Why on earth do we still post them on walls in courthouses (wherever the ACLU hasn’t prevented it)? I do not believe that Jesus nullified the 10 commandments. Why do you?     David Miller wrote: >> Can you explain your answer?  Even if you >> consider Bill a murderer, is that worse than >> Sabbath breaking?  Both are capital offenses, >> so what would make one worse than the other? >> Wouldn't it be worse to sin against God rather >> than sinning against your neighbor?   Izzy wrote: > I can't explain why God had certain rules and > regs in the OT.   My comment was concerning what you said, that murder was worse than breaking the Sabbath.  I think I understand why God had certain rules and regs in the OT, but I'm not sure that you do.   The law was for the purpose of teaching us.  It was our school master.  Now we obtain righteousness by faith in Christ, not by obeying the Ten Commandments.  We fulfill the requirements of the Ten Commandments in spirit, when we walk in love.  Please review Romans 10:1-13.   David, I really have been to Sunday School 101. I do realize that the OT laws were written to teach us right from wrong.  Can you give me that much credit? I also realize that the law of love is the overruling law, and if you walk in love you also fulfill the 10 commandments.    However, I assert that if you disobey the 10 commandments (in their real intent; not just the letter of the law like the Pharisees were fond of doing) you are not walking in love. Otherwise, you can try to justify something like adultery by claiming, “But we were in LOVE, so that makes it okay! Love rules over the commandments on that issue!”   Izzy wrote: > Phillip Brown explains it this way: > The law teaches us that sin brings death. > ... you can generally determine atonement > from sin by looking at the penalty.  ... > If the penalty was death, it was sin. > ... I was able to see a clear distinction > between acts of sin, and acts that bring > atonement from sin.  Most of the acts of > sins that bring death can be easily related > to one of the ten commandments. > > ... On the other hand, there were many acts > that you did so that you didn't die. The wording > was always clear.  These were acts you did for > atonement of sin. > ... > They were always acts done specifically for > atonement; to avoid the death for sins that > do carry the death penalty.  That is why they > were abolished when Christ was crucified. > Christ is now our atonement, these older things > were but shadows of Christ's atonement.   His thinking does not hold up here.  Not circumcising was a death penalty sin, and even eating leavened bread during the feast of unleavened bread was a death penalty sin (Ex. 12:15,19).  God killed those who offered incense as an offering when he did not command it to be done that way (Numbers 3), and in Numbers 15 & Lev. 4, it is clear that presumptuous sins were never forgiven, even in regard to dietary and ceremonial laws.  With regard to the ten commandments, stealing was not a death penalty sin unless it was kidnapping, and lying was not always a death penalty sin either.  So the bottom line is that the author is trying to make a connection that does not exist.   I can’t go through the whole OT and catalog every single instance, which could probably be argued about anyway. If you say so I’m not going to argue about it. However I do believe that some of the OT laws were fulfilled in the atoning Blood. Some of the OT laws were replaced by today’s government, as we no longer live in a theocracy. The only laws that I think are still in effect are the moral laws. They never pass away as far as I can tell.   Izzy wrote: > All I know is that in my heart I feel convicted > if I don't keep the Sabbath, whereas I don't feel > convicted to keep the OT festivals and food rules. > I don't criticize those who do, but I don't think > it is necessary.   Really?  Do you feel convicted if you go outside and pick up some firewood for the fireplace on a Saturday morning when people in the house are cold?   If you pulled the husk from an ear of corn for supper on Saturday at 4:00 pm instead of at 9:00 pm after the sun went down, would you feel convicted?   Do you feel that those who pick up some sticks of wood on a Saturday morning should be executed right away?  Do you feel that you and other neighbors should be the one killing the Sabbath breaker?  If not, then you are not Torah observant.   It is tiresome to keep explaining myself over and over again, but for you I’d go to the ends of the earth. J The law is subservient to love, and part of loving is providing for basic human needs such as food and warmth and health.  Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Jesus ate grains of wheat from the fields on the Sabbath. Jesus understood the intent of the law. He had the law in His heart, so didn’t have to split hairs about it.   Izzy wrote: > Does this answer your question?   We need to talk more about Sabbath observance.  Do you think that you follow the Sabbath in the way the Torah talks about it?   I’m not sure what “way the Torah talks about it”. Probably not. I just rest on the Sabbath. I do the minimal amount of work as is practical without neglecting human needs. I even feed the dog. I don’t worry about flipping on a light switch or riding in a car. It’s just my day to rest in God’s provision for me through Jesus. It’s my day to forget the Big To-Do List that normally rules my life, and just read and meditate on Him.  Take a walk and enjoy His world. Spend time with the family He has given me. Take a huge nap without guilt. God rested on the seventh day. I do what I see my Father doing. That’s what He told me to do. I don’t argue about it. I enjoy it too much. J   P.S. I also don’t stone folks who don’t obey the Sabbath, whether they are Christians or not. Otherwise I’d never get any rest. They can all answer to God personally—it’s not my business to enforce God’s laws (except in myself). As I said, I don’t live in a theocracy, for better or for worse. Another way the NT differs from the OT.   Izzy