[TruthTalk] The Atonement

[jandgtaylor1]

From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: > There could not have been an atonement if Jesus > had the blood of Adam coursing through his veins > because then he would have been born in sin and > he would have had a sin nature like the rest of > us and this would have disqualified him because > the sacrifice had to be a male who was perfect > and without blemish.  Scripture teaches that > "he was made sin for us who knew no sin that > we might be made the righteousness of God in > Him" (2 Cor 5:21).   DavidM: We may have some deeper differences than atonement that concerns the sin nature and how it effects us.  I do not believe that the sin nature in itself makes us guilty before God.  I believe that the sin nature within us is simply a drive towards selfishness, which is a drive toward sin. However, if one resists this sin nature, he would be blameless.    Judy: I don't think so because death reigned from Adam to Moses even over those who had not sinned (Romans 5:14) and there is no power in our flesh to overcome the "sin that indwells us".    David: The Scriptures actually call some men blameless, such as Job, so I don't follow you on how Jesus must be distinct from the Adamic race in order to be a blameless sacrifice.   Judy: Job may have been walking in all the light he had at that time but he was not 'righteous' before God and he knew it. Job asks "how can a man be right before God?" and he speaks of having a Daysman (someone to plead his case with God Job 9:33-35). Later Job prophesies "I know that my redeemer lives and that he shall stand in the latter day upon the earth" (Job 19:25).  David also has the same awareness. He prays in Psalm 143:2 "Enter not into judgment with thy servant, for in thy sight shall no man living be justified."   DavidM: The Bible teaches that the life is in the blood, but from my perspective, that simply points out how the soul interfaces with the physical body.  In the Hebrew, it literally reads that the soul is in the blood.  It seems to me that if a lamb could be blameless and worthy of being a blood sacrifice, how much more could a human being who never sinned yet was descended from Adam be blameless and suitable for the ultimate sacrifice for mankind.    Judy: All a lamb has is a soul. Men are spirit beings originally created in God's image so the covering of sin with animal blood/skins was only a temporary measure; the animal kingdom were not created in God's image and they became involved in the fall through Adam's sin.  The animals involved in the sacrifices are also victims who are not responsible before God and their blood which was shed on the day of atonement and at other feast times only covered sin for that year whereas the blood of Jesus shed once through the eternal spirit is able to remit sin once and for all.   DavidM: Jesus knew no sin but he did know temptation.  I have some Scriptures in mind, but no time to continue this right now.  Maybe later.    Judy: He was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin and look at how James describes the process of sinning. We sin when we follow the lust of our own heart (which is the sin that indwells us through Adam's fall) (see James 3:6-18).   DavidM: If you care to comment on how you see the sin nature, maybe we will get closer to the difference in our basic assumptions that ultimately divides our understanding on this issue.  To recap, I believe that Jesus had a sin nature in his flesh, because he was descended from Adam, but I do not believe that this sin nature was something that brought him guilt or defiled him.  It was simply a drive of his flesh that was directed toward selfishness and so he experienced many of the same difficulties that we do when we are tempted and weakened by our bodies of flesh.   Judy: Flesh is much more than a tendency to be selfish. The flesh is already defiled and if not dealt with it defiles others. Jeremiah the prophet wrote that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) and Jesus taught that what defiles the man is not ethereal, it is what comes out of the heart ie: "evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." these are the things which defile a man (Matthew 15:18,19).     DavidM: Oh yeah, the reason for the virgin birth?  Only because it was a sign given to king Ahaz by Isaiah.  Signs of prophets served to bolster faith in those who believed the prophets.    Judy: It was a prophecy and as such it is either true or it is false. I believe it is true and that there is a reason whether we understand it perfectly at the present time or not.  I for one, am still learning.   DavidM: I'm sure this sign bolstered Mary's faith quite a bit and gave her great assurance in raising Jesus.  Some might think that Jesus was a perfect child that every mother would want, but just seeing his behavior at the Temple when he was twelve ought to clue us in that Mary had her hands full raising Jesus.  :-)   Judy: As a woman I don't see it quite the same way.  To me it would be the responsbility of the parents to do a head count before leaving a crowded gathering.  Jesus was at an age when Jewish boys undergo their Bar- Mitzvah taking full responsibility for their own spiritual lives and we are told that as he grew, he grew in grace with both man and God which would not be true of a rebellious son.  Later at the wedding in Cana when Mary told the servants to "Do whatever he says" she knew that something good was going to happen.   Grace and Peace, Judy