John, I think this is the kindest post I have ever read on TT.
Thank you my friend. Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004
7:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Trustworthy?
I have included both Izzy and Miller's post to each
other. One of the things I personally enjoy so much about this particular
list is the sense of community, if not family, that so obviously exists.
Hats off to Izzy for expressing what is experienced by several on this list and
being able to do so with a feeling of confidence. I missed whatever
it was that brought those thoughts to the surface, but I do know this; what
this friend of ours needs is that which comes with the passing of time
-- not any kind of sermonizing. I was startled at the message
given by David. Job's friends were convinced that Job had done
something wrong, also. In fact, Job himself shared that
belief except for the knowledge that he had done nothing wrong. His
whole theology was at a crossroads. And I do not believe that Job changed
his mind about his mistaken theology. In the end, the trial was
abandoned and Job returned to the days of glory.
Heb 12 does not use the idea of "discipline" as a synonym with
"chastisement." Not at all. In this 12 th chapter,
what happens to us is one thing, the lessons God grants in light of those
"bad" things is quite another.
I see nothing in Izzy's memo that tells me to beware. I have been a
pastor for a number of years, (I am not bragging here -- actually, it
more a complaint) now, and part of what I do involves helping those who
faith is on the rocks because of some calamity in their life
-- I do not see this as an issue in Linda's sharing.
What you have done for me, Izzy, is to make me aware that I am not alone on
those rare occasions in which I feel disappointment.
DavidM --- I am not correcting you in your response. There are
times when those words are needed, perhaps, but this may not be one of those
occasions.
John Smithson Ist
In a message dated 6/9/2004 7:31:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
David, As one who spent too many
years in the "name it and claim it"
movement, I thought all I had to do was "trust Jesus" for an answer
to any
prayer. That is what I mean by Jesus not always being one we can trust in
to answer prayer. In Larry Crabb's book, "Inside Out", he said
that he
remembers praying for his brother's safe trip just a short time before he
was killed when his airliner crashed in Denver.
This brought a great crisis
of faith for him. Haven't we all experienced a crisis of faith when such
disasters enter into our lives?
Even if my husband had "mistreated" his wife (which we all may be
guilty of
being selfish or insensitive at one time or another during a marriage),
which sin would you expect God to judge more severely--that or adultery,
giving you a child during your marriage only to tell you later that you are
not the father, kidnapping for two years, and lying about "abuse" in
court
for years to justify what was done? Perhaps you cannot understand grasping
for meaning when you see evil prosper against you because you have never
experienced it so severely. I fear for you that the Lord may want to give
you further understanding in this area--God forbid! And this is a small
thing, I am sure, compared to the trials that many others have suffered.
Our only hope and confidence is that these trials are at least redemptive in
that they teach us to submit to God even when He appears to make no
sense--then and only then can we learn what REAL trust is.
Izzy
PS I don't know about Job, but I wouldn't consider it a huge blessing to
have all of my family killed so that I could get a new one later on. I've
never understood that one.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David
Miller
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Trustworthy?
Izzy wrote:
>Bill, In my experience Jesus has not always been
>entirely someone I can trust in every sense of the
>word. Sometimes He is quite beyond any possibility
>of my understanding, let alone "trusting" Him. ...
>Job trusted, but was shocked by what happened to him.
>We have ALL been disappointed when we trusted the Lord,
>at one time or another. ... His Word is trustworthy.
>But often His answering of prayers is not. I believe
>we will someday understand why.
Izzy, I appreciate such a brutally honest post, but my heart is really
saddened to read it. Jesus is always able to be trusted. Always.
I cannot relate to your statement that we have ALL been disappointed
when we trusted the Lord. I do not remember anytime when Jesus has
broken my trust. Not once has he ever done that. In regards to Job,
if
he was shocked it was because he did not realize that bad things
happened to good people. Nevertheless, Job repented of his lack of
trusting God to deliver him from his calamity, and in the end he
received greater blessings than he had before. And more importantly,
despite whatever happened to him, he never stopped trusting that God
himself was righteous and holy. In all his calamity, Job never sinned
by cursing God or saying anything like, "God is not trustworthy."
There is a law of sowing and reaping in this world that must be
recognized. If a man mistreats his wife, he will suffer marital
problems. He can't say that he is trusting Jesus to fix his marital
problems when he has mistreated his wife. If he has suffered in this,
it is because he has stepped outside the doctrine of Christ in his
relationship to his wife. David committed adultery, but that did not
stop the judgment that came because of it, even after he repented. If
we experience the chastisement of the Lord, we should not come to the
conclusion that the Lord is not to be trusted. Rather, we need to
examine ourselves and see where we have departed from the doctrine and
admonition of the Lord. Please re-examine your perspective in this
area. I am very concerned and fear for you. Your perspective is not
one that would allow you to benefit from the chastisement of the Lord.
Rather, your perspective is one that leads to being confused by the rod
of correction, to hating this rod, and eventually to rebellion of the
heart. Please reconsider.
Also, consider that there is a spiritual war going on. Jesus promised
us tribulation and persecution. We can't trust Jesus to keep us FROM
the tribulation, because that would be contrary to his teaching and
promises, but we can trust Jesus to strengthen us and to deliver us in
the end. We also can trust Jesus to judge those through whom that
persecution comes.
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
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