From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and, after "the fall," became like all those who would come after him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
jt: Don't you have it in
reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was first.
After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came was made in the
image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than God).
The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is an indication that he already had a nature that was given to sinning -- it just hadn't happened yet.
The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is an indication that he already had a nature that was given to sinning -- it just hadn't happened yet.
jt: What would make you
assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you saying that
God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a physical being
rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically looking like God
outwardly?
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before "the
fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition for
sin --- especially character flaws.
jt: Hmmmm! He named all
the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work and eat by
the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the curse see Genesis
3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was Genesis 2:17 which
reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in dying (spiritually) you
shall die" (physically).
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but that we
own a share of personal responsibility ("......and death passed upon all men
because all have sinned.")
jt: We share Adam's death
mortally because of the fall; however our own personal responsibility as per
Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are born with an inheritance in
the first Adam but are responsible for our own sin as Ezekiel 18 makes
clear.
Perhaps the point of the Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going to be able to inherit the kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of reconciliation.
Perhaps the point of the Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going to be able to inherit the kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of reconciliation.
jt: The first two humans
were living in it - they were in the Garden of God with access to the Tree of
Life. Why would they need to inherit it?
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us. Rather
(perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being (mankind) was going
to need provision from the creator in order to live again in a dimension
we call "eternity."
jt: Before Adam "blew it"
God had made provision; all of their needs were met and they were living in the
eternal dimension.
The scriptures do teach that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
The scriptures do teach that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
jt: Fallen flesh and
blood will never inherit God's Kingdom; we need to read it in balance and
context.
So, the creation process always included the Cross.
jt: No, Jesus was a lamb
slain before the foundation of the world only because of God's foreknowledge. He
provided a way back, so we have Paradise lost, and Paradise regained in
Christ.
We - Adam included _ have always fallen short of the glory of God and only
in Christ is this solved -- no not "solved" but brought to
fulfillment. We -- Adam included -- were never the full
stature of Christ apart from His indwelling.
jt: Before the fall
Adam was not short of God's glory; he wasn't even deceived like Eve.
He chose the other way of his own volition.
And BTW the two trees in
the garden were not apples and oranges; they are two different kinds of
wisdom. The wisdom from above which is pure peaceable and full of good
fruit; and the other kind which is earthly, sensual, and demonic. Adam was
walking in the former until he chose the latter bu default. We are also
presented with the same choice daily.
judyt
