Hello JudyT: Thanks for the response. bear in mind that I am just now thinking this through. I write as emphatic as many on this forum. But understand that this is a new thought for me and I am working it out. My comments are after yours, below.
John --- How is Jenna?????
In a message dated 7/20/2004 5:43:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Subj: [TruthTalk] The Two Treesjt: Don't you have it in reverse John? Adam was made in the image of God. He was first. After the fall Seth through whom the spiritual lineage came was made in the image of Adam (Genesis 5:3 rather than God).
Date: 7/20/2004 5:43:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent from the Internet
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Et al - Not to change the subject (we always say that when, in fact, we intend to do just that) BUT I am thinking about this whole business regarding Adam (blame Kruger for this)
We pretty much believe that Adam was created one person and, after "the fall," became like all those who would come after him. Oh my little grasshoppers -- not so fast. I am not sure where I am going with this but here goes:
Gen 1:26,27 -- I would argue that this passage makes it clear that "mankind" was created in the image of God -- male and female. The reference is not limited to Adam and Eve and, in fact, it is possible that they were not the only created couple. By the time Cain commits his crime, there are so many people on the earth that he is afraid of them.
The fact that the "Tree of Life" was in the garden indicates to me that Adam was created a mortal being. The fact that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was in the garden is an indication that he already had a nature that was given to sinning -- it just hadn't happened yet.
jt: What would make you assume the above? Adam was made in the image of God, are you saying that God has a nature that is given to sinning? Or that God is a physical being rather than Spirit and that Adam was made physically looking like God outwardly?
Refer to my comments above. In addition, this "in the image of God" thing does not mean that God is flesh and blood, limited by time and space, with little comparative foresight and subject to a higher power. What does "image of God" mean to you?
jt: Hmmmm! He named all the animals which was no mean feat. Lazy? He was not required to work and eat by the sweat of his brow before the fall, (this is part of the curse see Genesis 3:19); in fact Adam's Bible had just one verse which was Genesis 2:17 which reads in the original "in the day you eat of it in dying (spiritually) you shall die" (physically).
I would argue that he was selfish, conceited, lazy, etc before "the fall." But where there is no law, there is no definition for sin --- especially character flaws.
Naming animals is hard work? I don't know about that, Judy.
jt: We share Adam's death mortally because of the fall; however our own personal responsibility as per Romans 5:12 is because "all have sinned" Yes we are born with an inheritance in the first Adam but are responsible for our own sin as Ezekiel 18 makes clear.
Ro 5:12 makes it clear that we share not only in Adam's death, but that we own a share of personal responsibility ("......and death passed upon all men because all have sinned.")
Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Adam's inheritance was nothing apart from the eventual sacrifice of Christ. No man comes to the Father except by me. I am thinking this idea means that God did not create -- could not -- creat a man being that would enjoy eternity without first being partnered in this life with the Son.
jt: The first two humans were living in it - they were in the Garden of God with access to the Tree of Life. Why would they need to inherit it?
Perhaps the point of the Cross beginning with Adam is this: humans were never going to be able to inherit the kingdom of Heaven apart from the process of reconciliation.
Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The garden was not the Kingdom. I would need some scripture reference or inference on this.
jt: Before Adam "blew it" God had made provision; all of their needs were met and they were living in the eternal dimension.
It is not that Adam "blew it" for the rest of us. Rather (perhaps) it is that from the beginning, the created being (mankind) was going to need provision from the creator in order to live again in a dimension we call "eternity."
The garden was not spiritual -- it was a physical place -- right???? That is what the text would have us believe.
The scriptures do teach that flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
jt: Fallen flesh and blood will never inherit God's Kingdom; we need to read it in balance and context.
So you are saying that the flesh and blood Adam was in a spiritual place? You are losing me, Judy.
jt: No, Jesus was a lamb slain before the foundation of the world only because of God's foreknowledge. He provided a way back, so we have Paradise lost, and Paradise regained in Christ.
So, the creation process always included the Cross.
I hate this but I have to go. I just got a call from one of my contractors. This paragraph of thought is perhaps the most important, however. Christ did several things which included solving the sin/death problem. Much more on this later. Thanks Judy for your time.
jt: Before the fall Adam was not short of God's glory; he wasn't even deceived like Eve. He chose the other way of his own volition.
We - Adam included _ have always fallen short of the glory of God and only in Christ is this solved -- no not "solved" but brought to fulfillment. We -- Adam included -- were never the full stature of Christ apart from His indwelling.
And BTW the two trees in the garden were not apples and oranges; they are two different kinds of wisdom. The wisdom from above which is pure peaceable and full of good fruit; and the other kind which is earthly, sensual, and demonic. Adam was walking in the former until he chose the latter bu default. We are also presented with the same choice daily.
judyt
