[TruthTalk] from O'Reilley to you

[Judy Taylor]

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:50:42 -0400 "Hughes Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Hi Judy,   Welcome to the fray.  To answer your first question, unequivocally I consider myself to be able to judge (used in the sense of discernment, not in the sense of putting myself in a position above the other) the foreign policy and its inventors in America.  I certainly believe that God calls us to justice and not only that but that He loves justice.  As His follower I abide by that.    jt: I agree that God loves justice and that this is what we should seek in our own particular area of influence. However, unless we feel called to run for public office what is the point of this kind of discernment.  I have a difficult time believing it is one of the spiritual giftings as I don't find a call for ordinary believers to judge nations in any gospel or epistle..    Do you believe abortion is wrong Judy?  There we go.  We both agree that we should fight injustice.  Hide behind 'do not judge' verses but people are dying.   jt: Yes abortion is wrong - Thou shalt not kill.  And I would never have one.  However, I can not force my preference upon another; every person has a God-given right to make their own choice even when it is the wrong one and causes judgment and death.   You are correct in saying that the UN is a political organization.  They have been doing this survey for years.  Canada has topped the list at least 4 times in the last 10 years but has recently fallen to 4th.   jt: I lived in Canada for several years - what makes it so wonderful in the eyes of the UN?   Terrorism should be solved by ideology not by violence.    jt: How does one reason with demons? How does ideology stop women from Chechnya from blowing up airplanes and killing other people and how does ideology stop the al Queda network from cutting the heads off hostages to get their own way politically?  They obviously have a different ideology from ours and so far as they are concerned it is going to be their way or no way.  I'm sure glad they don't yet have access to a nuclear weapon.   Your lack of knowledge regarding such figures as Pol Pot is agonizing to me.  You are aware that the US was in complete support of Pol Pot for years?  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot)  You realize that Saddam was a best friend to the States prior to the invasion of Kuwait?  You realize that US support was during their horrors they perpetuated on their own citizens?  You realize that the United States was convicted of Terrorism by the World Court for its war in Nicaragua (http://www.infoanarchy.org/wiki/wiki.pl? action="">   jt: Do you have proof for all of these allegations Jonathan or is this hear say?  Also is America allowed to make any mistakes? People make wrong choices and so do nations.  Why not let God who not only knows what happened but also knows the secrets of men's hearts make these judgment calls?    You realize that at least 100000 children have died in Iraq due to the sanctions put in place by the US through the UN since 1992 (this figure is probably closer to 300000).  There are tonnes of links out there for you to google on this one.  These are children and babies Judy.  The real issue here is:  DO YOU CARE?    jt: To tell you the truth Jonathan I have enough to care about going on in my own backyard, I don't borrow trouble or get on the internet looking for it either because too many times we are presented with a slanted view according to who is doing the telling.   There is such a lack of education among you and Izzy regarding what the US has done and when it did it.  Instead you want to concentrate on the good that the US has done.  It is such a silly argument that I never want to have to tell God I was involved in it.  "Why, yes God I know we were involved in killing tonnes of innocent people, but look at the ones we helped.  Doesn't it even out just a little?"    jt: What makes you think God will hold you responsible for what the US Government has been involved with and how do you know that God Himself isn't behind some or all of it.  He has historically used pagan nations to judge other nations and eventually they saw their own Waterloo also. The curse causeless does not come so we need more that a critical spirit and blame shifting to know what is going on .. I've heard some say that America will be the last domino to fall before we are prey to a One World Government.  I wouldn't exactly call Izzy and myself ignorant if I were you Jonathan; we are privy to a different kind of wisdom.    When I was young and got in trouble for doing something I didn't say to my mother, "But mom, I did make my bed today".  You see I am expected to make my bed, to do good and help others.  This is never the issue.  The issue is the mass amount of injustice in our world today.    jt: Who is the god of this world system?  Think about it?  Why would you expect anything else from the Father of Lies. Our responsibility is to be good ambassadors for a Kingdom that is not of this world - a city with a true foundation whose builder and maker is God.   Show me a pure-bred conservative and I will show you someone who is NOT involved in social activism, nor even cares.  Harsh I know but that is how I feel.  Prove me wrong. Jonathan Hughes jt: You are not wrong per se if social activism is your thing.  It's just that Jesus hasn't called us to that.  He calls us to "follow Him" because in God's time the government will literally be on His shoulders and He will take care of all of your concerns. In the meantime we are to deal with the sin in our own lives - and minister to those in our immediate circle so we will be ready at His coming.       On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:41:08 -0400 "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do not believe I have misquoted O’Reilly.  His point was that there are other countries out there that will look out for you/take care of you (synonymous) more than the American government.  Much of the book is dedicated to illustrate that this is true.  His next point is that America is still the best place to live even though the first point is true.  A lot of that reasoning is dealt with by you below.  Basically it rests on the word autonomy which I do not believe to be a Christian concept.  Since the garden humankind has pursued autonomy instead of community under God.  I believe it will be the Western world’s downfall.  For the record I think America is a great country.  My issues with the United States are rarely domestic.  My issues with America almost always revolve around their foreign policy since WW2.  I hold them responsible for a massive amount of death around the world.  This is easily proven by just a small amount of research.  What I find saddening is that so few people are willing to do the work of research.  One is accused of being a traitor, anti-American, liberal etc just for taking the time to do some checking of the facts.  It is far more comfortable to sit back thinking everything is fine, drinking up the propaganda than to own up to the facts.  5 minutes at www.amazon.com looking at American foreign policy books or books on Bush’s regime and you would come away with months if not years of reading material.  There is so much material on this that it is scary.  Is ignorance bliss?  I value Canada for its safety, health care system and education.  The latest UN results for the best country to live in are at the following link - http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_12_1_1.html.  All of the tables can be reached here: http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/index_indicators.cfm.  Jonathan     Jonathan & Lance, I'd like to address the assumptions I see in your emails constantly ...  I'm sure that if I inquired you would both tell me it is wrong to judge people and you would probably be the first ones to quote Matthew 7:1 if I tried to hold you or your friends responsible for what I perceive to be ungodly attributes.   By the same token how can you presume to judge America as a nation?  You are both guilty of this; do you believe God has ordained you two to judge the Nations before the time?  As for facts.  Well that depends on who is supplying them. As the old saying goes "figures don't lie but liars do figure" and the UN is an extremely political organization.   Before consigning America to hell for her responsibility in all of this death and bloodshed around the world you might want to consider that we have lost 947 souls since declaring war on Afghanistan so there are close to 1,000 families in America mourning deceased fathers and sons - and since you seem to know more about it than the rest of us - what would you suggest we do?  We lost close to 3,000 on 9-11-2001.   Do you suppose Terrorism will just "go away" by itself?  Would the same have been true concerning Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Mao and other tyrants if there were no strong American military to check their progress. It's OK for you Canadians to crow about your #4 position on this UN list. I note that out of the first 10 Nations only Australia and America committed and sacrificed both manpower and money for the cause of world peace.   As for socialized medicine.  Australia has a system similar to yours but then Australia and Canada are both Nations with populations well under 50 million; a big difference.  America has 270 million plus with people trying to come over the borders from all directions daily costing this Nation's taxpayers a lot of money whether they stay or leave. It's deception to believe that any Government really cares about the individual or will take responsibility for you from the cradle to the grave for that matter because people (in governments) come and people go.   Makes much more sense from my POV anyway to put our faith in the only one who stays the same "Yesterday, today, and forever"  What's wrong with living and dying trusting God?     judyt This e-mail and any attachments contain confidential and privileged information. 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