RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: 9/11 overview

[Jonathan Hughes]

Title: 9/11 overview

Jonathan in purple.  I have deleted paragraphs where I did not make a comment just to shorten the post.     Izzy in blue!     Jonathan in green.     Izzy in red:     Your fear of liberal propaganda is interesting.  What are you afraid of?  That’s rather like sodomities calling people who find their lifestyle abhorrent “homophobes”.  They flatter themselves with the epithet they cast at others. Your use of an illustration involving sin when we are talking about the difference between liberal and conservative politics is interesting.  Do you actually believe that to be liberal is to be a sinner?  And of course you would have to post a fuller context but it is very possible to be a homophobe.  It is also possible to think of homosexuality as a sin and not be a homophobe.  See John Smithson for proof of this.  From what I’ve seen of liberals, they call evil good and good evil.  (ie: homosexuality, abortion, anti-war even for defense of country, anti-repentance gospel, anti-conservative politics, etc, etc, etc.  Now this might have been beneficial.  I should have asked you to define what you meant by liberal.  I am against homosexuality, abortion and am pro-war for defense of country.  I am all for repentance.  Not sure what anti-conservative politics are so I can’t comment.  Do you still think I am a liberal?  All along you have been branding me liberal just because I disagree with your country’s foreign policy and my disagreement with that begins right after WW2.  The reason I am harsh on Bush is only because he is the current President and currently committing atrocities in Iraq.  Whether he is conservative or liberal doesn’t mean a fig to me.  I have stressed over and over again: my issue is with foreign policy!   If you were so certain in your political faith, liberal propaganda (read – the truth) should not affect you at all.  See above. Again the discrepancy: I can call your view of God abhorrent and you barely blink.  That’s different than you casting insults and slanders about my God, isn’t it? That is what you do politically (as do all people who cannot defend their point of view without name-calling as a substitute for reason.) I have no problem with discussing a specific point about my views.  I do have a problem with nasty insulters. Izzy you take just as much of a part in the insulting and slander as anyone else here.  And the point must be made ad nauseam, to speak critically about your country or its leaders is not an insult, slander or treason.  It is using our God given gifts of thought to expose corruption.   You still don’t understand—no matter how many times I tell you—that discussion of topics is one thing, but insults are insults, and slander (false assertions) is still slander.  That is what you do repeatedly, and when I state that is why we cannot converse, you just say “Well, you do it, too!” With all due respect please just consider that this applies to you as well.   A post that may intrude upon your political persuasions causes all sorts of cattiness to come out.  So—I’m a cat! (duh!) The question to be asked yet again is why do you hold your politics closer to your heart than your Christianity?  That is merely your opinion, and baseless at that. See previous sentences please. If it was baseless why do I keep bringing it up?  It strikes me as a very peculiar characteristic of yours.  You are entitled to your opinion. It is an uncharitable one.  No matter that I tell you that my personal relationship with God is the basis for my politics.  Ever notice that’s true about everyone?  Yes and this is what bothers me.  Knowing American foreign policy as I do and knowing God as I do I wonder how you can put them together.  One is complete unrighteousness.   Why is one (neoconservative politics) so much more important to you than the other?  Why does one have an emotional reaction (always negative except in fawning worship sessions of your president)?  (See how insulting you are? Do you have any clue, Jonathan? This is a definite problem whenever you try to get someone to be “open minded”.  What are you thinking?????) Izzy, please go back and read your posts about meeting George W Bush.  I feel that the way you described your meeting was worship like; just my opinion. That is because you hate to hear anything good about GWB.  You dismiss it as “worship”—another characteristic liberal insult used by many.  I have never indulged in hate speech.  Please prove it.  I have never said that George W Bush is completely bad.  In fact I have made few comments about Bush.  In reality I am far more concerned with the neo-conservatives that are actually driving his policies than I am with him himself.   I think a lot about you.  You are obviously bright and care for your family. (Bright???  How about brilliant???)  There is no doubt in my mind that you are intelligent.  You are obviously a lover of God and committed to Him.  What I don’t understand is why you are not open-minded in your quest for truth. (What makes you think YOU are and I am not? What if the reverse is true? Would you see it? (Hint: No!)  Izzy, I have never hid my bias and am quite upfront about it.  What makes me think I am being more open-minded than you?  Well that is easy.  I am willing to read, discuss and study both sides.  You are not.  Please explain how this makes you open-minded.  So that’s your story and you are sticking to it. J  Yes.  Feel free to show how I am wrong here.    You see, politics are an untouchable area for you, one you refuse to study.  You see, I think that if you actually understood Bush and his colleagues, as a Christian you would steer the widest path around him as possible (and the second choice of Kerry is not much better; the country will still be led off the cliff, just a bit later).  What keeps you from reading books, articles etc. from the ‘other side’?  Because they are all written by liberals, which means slanderers and insulters with no real evidence to discuss—only nasty, baseless, biased allegations.  You realize that this is a nasty, baseless, biased allegation?  Need I say more here?  It is racism on a political scale. See what I mean? Now I’m a political racist.   Do you see what I mean?  You (in red above) do the following.  Liberals = slanderers, insulters with no real evidence to discuss, only nasty, baseless, biased allegations.  You have taken an entire group of people (mild guess = 150 million people) and called them slanderers and insulters.  I am pointing out the silliness of your argument.     Neither you or Lance has ever produced a single bit of proof about anything you say.  Sure we have.  Lots of it.  You chose to ignore it (as is your right).  You just say here’s a website, here are some “masses” of books and liberal media publications—go read them.  Well the truth is tough here.  You will have to suck it up and do some homework yourself.  No one is going to spoonfeed you.  I have not just recommended liberal books; I have also recommended conservative ones.  It really doesn’t matter to me which side you read as long as you don’t shut off your critical facilities which you have given me every indication that you have.  You have not one thing to say for yourself.  Frankly, I don’t care.  I’d rather let God change your heart by talking about Him and His Word. Let God change my heart regarding the senseless death of millions of people?  Which senseless deaths are you referring to, Jonathan???? The abortions of the innocent? The 3000 massacred in the Twin Towers and Pentagon?  You are just very selective in who your heart bleeds for.  Not at all.  I have always stated (and can get you the emails if you refuse to go back and read them) how atrocious the crime against humanity 9/11 was.  What I then go on to say is how atrocious the crime against humanity the 50000 (35000 innocent civilians) dead in Iraq right now is.  Call that selective if you wish; I call it Christian.   Aye my only hope is that he will lessen the heartache.  That you would care is my prayer.  The mass of evidence is so much it is unbelievable (True—your words, not mine.).  And a good choice of words.  It is perhaps the first barrier you need to get over.  The fact that your government may have/is involved in acts of injustice Which injustice do you want to harp on today, Jonathan?  Blanket “acts of injustice” just leave me cold.  You can’t even pick one and explain it.  I have pointed you in the right direction here a number of times.  Nicaragua, Honduras, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Cambodia.  Go ahead.  Study one of them.  I know it is hard work but it is worth it.  Once again: you will not be spoon-fed.  I tried that with you.  Unless you are willing to put in an effort and study on your own we will get nowhere here.  If you want to begin with a liberal bent start with www.chomsky.info.  Your library will have Chomsky’s bestseller 9/11.  Tis short interviews with him.  Or start with Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism and the Failure of Good Intentions.  Tis written by Clyde Prestowitz, a die-hard conservative.  Your library will have it.    is hard to swallow.  I understand that.  I hope I am not being too personal here.  Forgive me if I am: Remember when you trusted your first husband?  How unbelievable it was that he would do such things? You have no idea what you are talking about.  Your “personal” injury by American politics cannot even be inflated to approximate such a thing. May God keep you from experiencing such a thing so that you will know what a ridiculous comparison that is.  I was trying to show how at first something can be unbelievable but after being hurt and looking at the facts one sees how wrong one was in assuming good about another.  As I said forgive me if this is too personal.  It is perhaps too close of an example to be worthwhile.   I have a theory about forums such as this one.  I think that it is extremely rare to see someone actually change their mind.  The first barrier is an inability to admit that they were/are ever wrong.  Judy is a good example of this.  Judy has expressed a few times that her understanding of God has never been wrong; hence the certainty of all her posts being correct leading mischievous people to call her the ‘voice of God’.  I see far more humility in you Izzy and think that you would admit you were/are wrong if the situation demanded it. (Nope; if it were true.) This leads to my second barrier.  I do not believe that anyone will listen to another in a way that makes them vulnerable unless they have full respect for the person speaking. Better yet, if they respect God. Yes that is true.  However there are many people who say they respect God and have no respect of persons.  We all fall in this category some time or another (and me more often than most).  This is perhaps the major reason true change rarely happens on Truthtalk no matter how much truth is being thrown around.  Three people have generated little respect on this forum; Lance and I for holding different views than most and sharing some of them with a coat That’s a euphemistic way of putting it. of sarcasm (Judy and you also make posts dripping in the sarcastic) and DaveH for being Mormon and therefore being automatically placed outside the circle. (DaveH is well loved here.  Weird, but well loved. J )  You yourself have expressed that you want nothing to do with our theology. Righto, if it makes you hate what is good and love what is evil; which is the appearance politically.  Please tell me what I hate that is good?  I am wracking my mind trying to think of what you are referring to here.  Is it abortion?  I am decidedly pro-life if that is the issue you are referring to.  Most often when you mention liberal thinking this is the cause you bring up most. Then why do you hate Conservative politics in America? Do the liberal Democrats try to protect the unborn? You are double-minded. Who said I hate conservative politics Izzy?  When did I ever use the word hate?  When was this a topic about abortion?  When did you ever think to ask me my stance on abortion?  Why do you assume that I am party oriented?  I have never said the democrats are the party to vote for.  I have never said vote for Kerry.  I have never pitted the parties against one another.  I have critiqued American foreign policy regardless of which power is in office.  I have no desire to be right or left Izzy.  What I do continually point out is your blind adherence to your party, not to get you to switch but to get you to actually start thinking.  Show me exact quotes where I am double-minded please.  Show me where I say support the Democrat party.  Show me.  Do you believe it is possible to critique your President?  Does one have to be pigeon-holed into a political party to do this?     Most of us are followers.  If a leader thinks a point is worthwhile considering, as followers we think a point is worthwhile considering.  With no leader to dialogue with there is no hope of change.  This is the real substance behind my ‘End of Truthtalk’ post.  Those that hold their opinions will continue to hold their opinions.  No real dialogue will occur.  Comments are made that our attitudes display hatred and condescension completely avoiding seeing the exact same attributes in yourself (and Judy).  Lance and I have turned to making shocking comments (like Lance’s story of punishment yesterday) in order to wake some of you up to what you actually believe. It isn’t shocking. It’s what we, in Missouri, call “talking”.  I like it when you are honest.  I can deal with that easily. I just don’t like nastiness or superciliousness. No one responded to the post of me hitting my son (fiction only) and then showing how this view of weather of God hitting us is so misguided.  Why not?  As I said, I had NO problem with your viewpoint.  I just don’t see it the same way, okay? I was not saying you were nasty in that post. Because you were not, I had no problem discussing the issue.  Do you believe that God sends storms to maim and kill people in order to provoke repentance?  Is God like the father in the story that beats his son?  Is our God a bloodthirsty killer?   Well this post has meandered enough and is not very well written.  More of a stream of conciousness.  My main question is, “How do we dialogue on this forum in a way that fosters the participants listening and hearing each other?”  By honestly voicing opinions or even venturing thoughts we aren’t sure of without expecting anyone else to agree.  By trusting the Holy Spirit to change hearts without our help. I would suggest that the Spirit wants to cooperate with our help.  How do we disagree with one another while still generating respect? By refraining from insults and slanders would be a good start.  Respecting me means not disrespecting those that I love.  You will always come out on the bottom if you trample those who I already respect—they earned it.  Remember: I am rabidly loyal. My #1 attribute and flaw, perhaps. If it keeps you from honestly looking at the issues, making you an ideologue than yes it is a flaw; I feel this is what has happenned.  Jonathan, YOU are just as much an “ideologue” as any human being! Pick up the mirror. J  I make no pretensions Izzy.  I do attempt to look at each side of the issue instead of taking just one side.  In this mirror please demonstrate how I am not giving enough weight to your viewpoints.