Thank you for your quick reply. I just want to make
sure I am understanding you correctly before I leave this topic alone.
So often on this forum I am guilty of jumping to conclusions about what others
think. Often I am only creating a parody of what they actually
believe. While it may lead to a few funny/angry posts it does tend to
hinder dialogue rather than contribute to it.
jt: Whether or not we are in complete agreement when all is said
and done Jonathan, I do appreciate your willingness to try and understand
what I'm about and I thank you for that.
In your response you only referred to blessing/cursing in
the passage you quote from Galatians 3. Would it be safe for me to think
that you include the blessing/cursing of Deuteronomy within the
concept/category of moral law, and not in the category of Levitical law?
jt: Yes. In Deuteronomy God refers to the diseases
of Egypt which were well before the Law of Moses was given at
Sinai.
If this is true, would you be saying that while the
Levitical law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, moral law, which
includes the concepts of blessing and cursing, still affects us today?
jt: Yes. In Christ we have everything necessary to overcome
and walk in God's blessing including a cleansed conscience which was not
available under Levitical law. Though divine healing was there for them
and it is for us as well as we walk in repentance and learn to
love.
A few other questions that would help me clarify your
position:
1) Would it be true that while only Christ
could fulfill the Levitical Law, all of us are capable of fulfilling the moral
law?
jt: Yes. Only He was
without spot or blemish, not having any inheritance in the first Adam - and
since the cross we are capable of fulfilling the moral law through
Him.
2) Does the same 'thing' that kept Israel from
fulfilling the Levitical law also keep us from fulfilling God's moral
law?
jt: Unbelief will certainly keep us from fulfilling God's moral
law and this is a constant battle because we have an enemy who has been around
for a long time and who knows lots of tricks and God allows us to be tested
but not beyond what we are able to bear.
3) Does the same grace of God that enables us
to fulfill the Levitical law also enable us to fulfill God's moral
law?
jt: The Levitical law has been fulfilled already in Christ and
headquarters is now at the right hand of the Father in heaven. We are to
follow the Chief Shepherd and keep His Commandments which are to love God,
ourselves, and our neighbors.
4) In another post today there was a comment made
about the 'covering of grace'. While I do not believe that we are
covered by grace (rather we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ), do you
view grace and law as two separate categories that are mutually
exclusive? Or do you believe that grace is present in the
law?
jt: My definition of 'grace' is probably different from what is
generally accepted by much of evangelical Christendom. I don't
believe that grace is ever a cover for sin. Rather grace is the ability
by the power of the cross to overcome sin. We overcome by grace through
faith. Faith was necessary under the law also and grace must have been
there; they were either blessed or cursed according to their choices in
life.
If in any way I am mischaracterizing your thought here
please point it out. Jonathan
jt: Not that I
can see so far Jonathan that is, if when we use a word we are meaning the same
thing.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy
Taylor
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:54:41 -0500 "Hughes Jonathan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
Hi Judy, for once I am actually in agreement with
you here. But I am left confused. On one hand you point to
Christ as the fulfillment of the law, that we do not have the law plus
Jesus.
jt: I don't know if we are saying the same thing
Jonathan. He (Jesus) fulfilled the Levitical Law which Israel did not
or could not keep according to Stephen (Acts
7:43)
Jonathan: From past posts of yours which seemed to
place primacy on the law and types I would have thought you would be more
supportive of Suzy's position. It appears that I was wrong in thinking
this of you. What I am now trying to understand is why you still think
we are under the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy but not under the laws
of Deuteronomy.
jt: Jesus who overcame death and
hell by the 'eternal Spirit' introduced the Kingdom of God
which is the Spirit of the Law rather than the letter of the law which
kills (not gnostic). God's nature, character and
standards, have not ever changed. What is different in this equation is the
believer in Christ who is born anew by the Spirit of God, indwelled and
instructed by the same Spirit, and is given a heart of flesh along with
the desire to love and obey our Lord and Master. So ultimately it is
God in Christ who causes us to overcome.
Please understand that I am honestly attempting to
understand you here, not to mock you. I have no follow-up post to slam
you regardless of what your answer is. I am attempting to put together
why from my perspective there seems to be a disconnect. Basically, why
are the blessings and curses not fulfilled in Christ when the law was?
jt: The Levitical or
Ceremonial law is what Christ fulfilled but God's moral standard or moral
law still stands and this is what we are judged by in the Last Day.
Jesus became a curse for us as per (Galatians 3:13). I don't
have a problem with loving and obeying God according to His Word. What I
have a problem with is putting oneself under these 613 Commands because
it is written that "They which be of faith are blessed with faithful
Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for
it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which
are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified
by the law in the sight of God, it is evident; for, the just shall live by
faith and the law is not of faith; but the man that doeth them shall live in
them." (Galatians 3:9-12)
Can we separate them out so that one still
applies? Your answer may be that the law was a tutor to lead us to
Christ but that the blessings/curses have a different purpose and therefore
are still in effect.
jt: I personally love God's moral
law, commandments and statutes; actually Psalm 19:7-14 is probably my
favorite scripture or at least one of them; this and Matthew 6:33 are
dear to me.
judyt
By the way I think that your 'two
covenants/houses' analogy is quite good.
Jonathan Hughes
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Judy Taylor
From: Susan Petersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Adhering
to the Law of Moses to earn salvation is legalism and bondage. There is
nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Once again I say that we follow the
Law out of love for Jesus. If you love Me you will follow my commandments.
And there is no difference between God's commandments and Jesus'
commandments.
jt: God's condition for salvation is the obedience
that comes through faith and Jesus did not give 613 Commands Suzy. The
law was given as a tutor or schoolmaster to show us the sinfulness of sin
and to lead us to Christ. It's not 613 Commands plus Jesus. There are
two houses or Covenants described in Hebrews 3:
"Therefore holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly
calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High
Priest of our confession. He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses
also was in all His house. For He has been counted worthy of more
glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the
house has more honor than the house. For every house is built
by someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a
testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was
faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are
IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of
our hope firm until the end" Judyt
