I do not think we are on TruthTalk to debate or attack anything.
Some are. Some are not. TruthTalk is to talk about Truth and it is open to everyone. Therefore, we should expect a lot of variety in why people are here and a lot of variety in how people approach truth. Such discussion will include how a person searches out truth, where truth might be found, and how truth is apprehended, etc. Some people see debate and falsifying hypotheses as a way of doing this.
Jonathan wrote:
I do believe you think that Truthtalk is the proper forum for this.
Yes I do.
Jonathan wrote:
Our example is a God who claimed victory in weakness on the cross, not through attacking.
The cross was not weakness at all. That is the enigma of the cross. The cross shows the power of words. Jesus used words to attack many things in his culture. They crucified him because of his attacks on their social and political structures. Yet, the cross did not defeat him. Words won out over the use of force. That is one power of the cross.
Jonathan wrote:
A debate or attack implicates the outcome of a winner.
Not necessarily. You and John S. invariably misunderstand about 50% of my posts because you have this mindset of "relationships" being interjected into what I say. I debate and attack ideas and hypotheses that need further investigation. I have been trained as a scientist that no ideology is sacred, and that every conclusion, even the most noble of theories, is tentative and should be subject to skepticism and investigation. In fact, in science, a theory that is not potentially falsfiable is completely useless. In science, ideas exist for the sole purpose of trying to falsify them. The concepts that resist falsification the best are the ones we accept as true. I'll say more about this at the end of this post or in another thread with an appropriate title, depending on how much time I have.
Jonathan wrote:
We are not here to be winners.
Well, not in the sense you mean it here, of someone gaining preeminence over someone else. However, I do think we are all winners when an idea is shown to be false and we all realize that we should reject that particular viewpoint.
Jonathan wrote:
I believe you inherit this from your scientific background.
True.
Jonathan wrote:
In science we have objects. In order to ‘know’ them we must master them, reduce them to their most common elements, to humiliate them.
You are confusing reductionism with science now. Many scientists are holistic in their approach, but I am a reductionist with an appreciation for the holistic approach.
Jonathan wrote:
Mastery over an object belongs only in science.
Why?
Jonathan wrote:
When people become objects mastery should go out the window.
People should not become objects, I agree. But here is the problem. You confuse the attacking of a theory or concept with the idea of attacking a person. This is not the same. My perspective is that if someone is following Jesus Christ, they have agreed to set aside everything in their life that is not of Christ. Therefore, when they are shown that a viewpoint they have is not of Truth, then they will lay aside the idea and move on in Christ.
Jonathan wrote:
On this forum the only time we will actually begin to know each other is if we become changed in the process of working out our relationships.
I do not see this list's primary purpose as being something by which we get to know each other. I agree that such happens, and I like it very much. I have come to know guys like Gary, Dave Hansen, and Glenn Tabor primarily through this medium, but I don't think I will ever really get to know them without seeing them in person. Therefore, in my mind, getting to know each other (fellowship) is a secondary purpose of this list. The primary purpose is to dialogue about truth and our varied approaches to truth.
Jonathan wrote:
John is an excellent example of this. He has come to know Lance and Bill by being changed by them. This involves a great deal of intimacy that the scientific method lacks.
It seems to me that you have this theory about relationships being the all encompassing and important thing that effects change, but then you proceed in a way that makes your theory a self-fulfilling prophecy. You reject entering into any relationship that is not based solely upon the kind of interaction that you judge to be the right kind of relationship.
Some of us have found change in other ways, by applying the scientific method to concepts and viewpoints throughout life. Anywhere inductive logic is used, the scientific method offers some help in sorting through the conflicting opinions.
By the way, exactly how has John been changed by Bill and Lance? What was the problem before he met them, and what is the change in him now that he has intimately come to know them?
Jonathan wrote:
What I would beg of you is that you drop the debate/attack ideas thing and move on to intimacy with those on this forum. Take down the wall of logic and wrestle with the persons here.
I don't think wrestling with persons is helpful, Jonathan. That has been much of my point. You guys keep trying to make us wrestle one another, and I keep approaching this with the idea of judging what is said by each other. My focus is on concepts and ideas, whereas your focus is on the people themselves. That is why we keep misunderstanding each other. I already accept you guys and like you guys, so I don't see where there is much to work on there.
Jonathan wrote:
When this is done the well laid out argument becomes beneficial and people will begin to ‘hear’ you.
Many people hear me fine already. From my way of thiniking, what is sad is that I must change and conform to your relationship theology before you will hear me. I already hear you. Why can't you hear me unless I first change my approach to truth?
Peace be with you.
David Miller.
---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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