On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:24:16 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To the
Enlighteded:
jt: I consider myself a believer, so that makes
me "enlightened, right?"
JD: If no one cometh to Christ except the Father draw him - then Christ is NOT the "draw." Something else is going on.
JD: If no one cometh to Christ except the Father draw him - then Christ is NOT the "draw." Something else is going on.
jt: Right. Redemption is the draw, but first we must
agree that we are "fallen" and by nature "children of wrath" unable to
stand in God's presence.
JD: If Philip 2:12,13 (work out your own salvation for it is God at
work within you both to will and to do His good pleasure) is part of the answer
to the question embedded in the "draw," perhaps the Spirit of God is
involved in the life and goings on of all mankind.
jt: Let's get things in perspective here. Working out
their own salvation is impossible for those who are not in the
race. Paul wrote this letter to the "ecclesia" (called out ones) or
Church at Philippi so this conjecture is out of the ballpark and will
not fly because:
1. The world can not receive the Holy Spirit (John
14:17)
2. Jesus chooses his disciples and calls them "out of
this world" (John 15:19)
3. The Kingdom Jesus calls us to is NOT of this world
(John 18:36)
JD: Response, then, to this Divine Influence, would be called
"repentance" on one occasion,
"confession" on another, "benevolent
caring" on another, the expense of one's self for the
hungry on yet another,
jt: The Holy Spirit is more than a "divine influence"
John, He is a person and the third member of the Godhead. The above are not the
same nor are they interactive ie:
1. Repentance without regret involves making a
conscious decision to stop and change direction which is impossible to do
unconsciously.
2. Confession involves what we speak out of our mouths;
it is saying the same thing as God says about ourselves and others.
3. Benevolent caring is an aspect of LOVE which holds
it all together. Faith works by love.
and doing works of the law apart from actual
knowledge of the law ......................... in short,
the function of faith whether knowingly or not (as in the
case of the Gentile in Romans 2).
jt: I think we've discussed this before. Romans 2 is
all about the condition of the heart and circumcision being inward rather than
outward.
It is a spiritual impossibility for the
unregenerate Gentile who does not know the law of Moses to fulfill the same
outside of Christ just as it is impossible for a Carnal Christian to fulfill the
law through Christ. Love fulfills the law. Unsaved Gentiles are not walking in
love and neither are
self centered Carnal Christians or unregenerate
circumcised Jews.
JD: Because of the cross, Jesus dying for the whole
world (all of mankind, i.e. The Dance),
this response(s) demonstrates the function of faith
(works) and has a vital role to play as God considers the destiny of all and
each of mankind.
jt: You may call me legalistic John - I call it good
sense "The Dance" is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is a 4th Century
concoction; how does a Godhead who is ONE get in a dance with each other? Like
how would your nose dance with your big
toe?
Objections? Acts 2:38 seems to suggest that if we repent and are baptized, we will, then, receive the Holy Spirit. Mankind individually would not have the Spirit unless and until a certain response that "gets us saved" is committed to. But does the command in Acts 2:38 counter the idea of a continuing Presence in each of mankind?
Objections? Acts 2:38 seems to suggest that if we repent and are baptized, we will, then, receive the Holy Spirit. Mankind individually would not have the Spirit unless and until a certain response that "gets us saved" is committed to. But does the command in Acts 2:38 counter the idea of a continuing Presence in each of mankind?
jt: Clearly states
rather than "seems to suggest" John and yes it does counter the idea that
everyone has "God living inside them" Acts 2:38 has lots of company
ie:
1. The arrival of the Promise on the day of Pentecost -
received only by disciples (Acts 2:4)
2. Holy Ghost is given by God "to all those who obey
Him" (Acts 5:32
3. Not everyone obeys the gospel (Romans
10:16)
4. Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto
all them that obey him (Hebrews 5:9)
JD: What about Eph 5:18,19,20 makes it clear that Infilling of the Spirit
is a repeated possibility based upon a commitment to a specific function of
faith. "Be ye filled with the Spirit as you
................" could be considered a first time event by some when, in
fact, it speaks of a repeated infilling.
jt: Or "stay" that is keep
being filled with the spirit speaking to yourself with Psalms, Hymns, and
Spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. Again this
is written to the "called out ones" or the Church at Ephesus so it is assumed
they have received the Holy Spirit at conversion from their former paganism to
Christ.
Could it be that Acts 2:38 is not speaking of a first time occurrence for the same reasons that Eph 5 is not. That those in Acts 2 are responding to the inward motivations of God as described in Philip 2. That anytime we do what is right, we are in partnership with God. That salvation is ours to loose as we consider the "right thing to do" and decide against it? Just asking. JD
Could it be that Acts 2:38 is not speaking of a first time occurrence for the same reasons that Eph 5 is not. That those in Acts 2 are responding to the inward motivations of God as described in Philip 2. That anytime we do what is right, we are in partnership with God. That salvation is ours to loose as we consider the "right thing to do" and decide against it? Just asking. JD
jt: NO. Our righteousness before God is "as filthy
rags" even when we are doing what is right - and it is impossible to be in
Christ without knowing it because God is not in the habit of foisting himself on
people. We get our hearts desire in this world one way or the other.
And the heart is the issue. judyt
