Judy, do me a favor and pick one paragraph of thought that you would like to pursue. .
Jd
In a message dated 4/5/2005 1:51:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:26:11 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judymy specific question;
The reason why I asked the question; the reason why you can't come up with any scripture in answer to
I came up with plenty of scripture JD and could post many more but it would be a waste of my time because you will never accept them if they do not conform to your "larger context" which is more important (to you at this point).
the reason why I can't come up with any is this: God's love and God's grace do not empower, per se -- the Spirit is the power of God's presense. I think you have even said much the same in the past.
Hmmm, then how is His strength made perfect in my weakness if His love and grace do not empower? I agree that the Holy Spirit represents the Father &Jesus and is God's power in our lives. Is God ONE or isn't He?
The point is this: God's love sets the stage for all that happens; In "grace" are his blessings. This word, "grace" is used some 125 times in N.T. writings, only fours of those times in two passages (Lk 2:40 and John 1:14-17) where the references applying to the person of Christ. All other occasions are recorded in post-cross scripture. As relates to this discussion, the most important aspect of grace is it's provision for our salvation and it's contrast to "law." Romans 2,3 and 4 spell out the contrast between law (any law as illustrated by The Law Mosaical ) and faith. In Romans 6:14, Paul presents this very contrast in terms of "law" (any law along the order of The Law) and grace: " ......you are not under law; you are under grace." I would like to say, "short and simple" but "simple" is not the word. I would offer the word "profound," but such would be too predictable. Perhaps the best responce is silence -- awe.
Is grace a cover for sin in your gospel JD? You misunderstand Paul - yes he wrote Romans 2,3,4 and 6, Hebrews and Colossians which say the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross. ATST Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians that he is not without the law to God because he is under the law to Christ. So how do you reconcile this with your Postmodern gospel? This and the many, many references to the Royal Law which has been there from the beginning and rules today as "the Law of Christ?"
"The Law" (any law as illustrated by "The Law") presented definitions for right and wrong and in that providing, became a burden to all who were under it (Acts 15:10,11) for a number of reasons.You misrepresent the advice written at Jerusalem to the new believers in Antioch by taking it a bit far JD. These Gentile converts had God's Law written in their hearts (moral Law) and like Paul were also under the Law to Christ.
In Jere 31:31-34, a comprehensive prophecy of the New Covenant, we have a contrast of the Law with the Relationship.
This is where you get completely carried away JD. You have demanded exact and precise scripture from me for a principle that is all over the Bible and will not accept anything other - So now I demand the same from you. I want to see scripture that speaks of "inwardness" and "relationship" with exact wording. Not sheep/Shepherd, not servant/Master, not brethren/Lord - it must be "inwardness" and "relationship" the exact wording.
Since The Law is from God Himself, it would have to be the best offering of Law possible. But God sees the need to change the administration of his will from Law to Relationship (He had this in His mind from the foundations of the world) How do we know this to be true -- from law to relationship? Two things ----- maybe three. In the text (Jere. 31:31-34), Jeremiah describes an "inwardness" that is unmistakenly different from that of Law
Jeremiah speaks of a new heart - a circumcised heart in which God's Law is written - The prophet says nothing about any relationship and why write something you consider to be so defunct in the hearts of God's ppl anyway?
so different, in fact, that he means to say "not similar, of a different type." It is the Hebrew writer ( Heb 8:8ff) who tells us that "fault" was found in the Law. If we forget that this Law was from the very mind of God, and as such, it was the best offering that any Law could be, we will fail to appreciate the fact that any "second law" will have to be completely different, out of necessity.
There was not and is not anything wrong with God's Law; this is a figment of your imagination JD. Read about what Paul says regarding it - That it is "good, spiritual, holy etc and Jesus also who said that heaven and earth would pass away before one jot or tittle of it would fail. You need to get a grip here JD. Why not allow the Lord to give you understanding. It's the Aaronic priesthood that was replaced. The blessings and curses still stand. God is a "covenant" making God and despite what Lance claims this covenant is NOT unilateral as convenient as this might be. Even thought everything is provided by God, we are co-laborers with Him.
The New Covenant is not a law........but an inwardness that provides knowledge of the Great God Almighty.
I've been hearing a lot about this "inwardness" but have yet to see any fear of God which is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge.
As such, it must be a relationship, for only in a relationship will we have knowledge of Him.
Wishful thinking JD; God Himself determines who does and who does not come close to Him and it takes clean hands and a pure heart - in fact those who tremble at His Word are high on the list. The presumptuous and proud He knows from afar and will deal with them eventually.
the law is no longer a national circumstance but a personal one, an individual one. So profound is this relating that it presents those who are under this covenant with personal knowledge of God: "they shall not teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
The curse of the Law is a Church circumstance especially when the chain gang come marching in - where are the fruits of the Promise?. The lawless and unbelieving do not "know Him" JD - at the end of the book they are "outside the gate" (Rev 21:14-16); the ones who get inside are the ones who do His Commandments no matter what you want to call them. His Word is eternal, it does not change.
In Hebrews 10, 16ff, there is a presumption by Divine revelation -- that sin is only forgiven in the offering of sacrifice. We do not catch the importance of this fact. ONLY IN THE OFFERING OF A SACRIFICE IS THERE TO BE FORGIVENESS. That is why sacrifice has been with us from the beginning, post-garden. When Jeremiah predicts that "....I will remember their sins no more," he was, in fact, speaking of the sacrifice that was offered once and for all time: "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (10:14). Confession does not secure forgiveness. Prayer does not. Repentance does not --------------- these are presented to us in scripture as subsitutes for sacrifical offering. "Now where there is forgiveness of these things (full and completed0, there is no longer any offering for us" (10:18).
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission or taking away of sin and the blood of Christ shed through the Eternal Spirit is a once for all sacrifice whereas the blood of bulls and goats only covered things temporarily. Jesus endured God's wrath or curse in our place for our sin but your sweeping generalizations are in error JD because the writer of Hebrews goes on to speak about what happens to those who continue in sin after coming to Christ (Heb 6:4-6) and those who trample underfoot the blood of the covenant (Heb 10:29-31). No talk of exceptions for "inwardness or relationship" here either. Maybe you should just write a new Bible JD and cut out all of the parts
that will not harmonize with your "larger context".
Christ's sacrifice has on-going or continuing results (the forgiveness of sins), but in Hebrews, it is not because it is a "living sacrifice," but because it is a sacrifice of the Divine -- God looking to Himself and knowing that this is the highest order, if you will, of sacrifice. As such, it is the final sacrifice .... having been offered "once and for all time." All sin has been forgiven for those who are sanctified by God Himself. And sanctification occurs, not in obeying the law, be it new or otherwise, but in identifying with the Light. God is light -- and those who walk in The Light will have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ keeps on cleansing us from our sins (I Jo 1:7).
Nice job of cobbling a few scriptures together to try to validate what can never be validated by the whole counsel of God JD. Sanctification will never ever happen by osmosis or by works. Yes it begins at the cross and it continues as we obey God in walking after the Spirit while putting off the works of darkness (Romans 13:12), renewing our minds in His Word (Romans 12), and putting on the armour of light the Lord Jesus Christ. A lot of which is explained in your BSF lesson in Ephesians for this week JD? Have you done your homework?
We need to be careful that the light within us is not darkness - If it is - how great is that darkness? (Matt 6:23)
On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:40:22 EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In a message dated 4/4/2005 1:52:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:What exactly would go to your question JD?
I asked for scripture that tells me that God's love and God's grace empower me to accomplish fully a separation from sin and sinning in my life. If that is what you meant to say, I would like to see some scripture that specifically teaches that.
JD first you have to want to separate yourself from sin rather than make excuses and rationalize
how to be saved and keep it. "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3)
The scriptures you gave spoke of commandment keeping and my love for God expressed in commandment keeping -- none said anything about God's love or His grace being the
empowering agent in my complete separation from sin and sinning.
Didn't Jesus say that when we love Him and keep His Commandments that both Father and Son
come to abide with us? How much more power do you need? Of course if you don't love Him and break the Royal Law you make yourself a covenant breaker who wears the curse rather than the blessings.
First you delete 10 or so words from my statement and now you add 20 words or more to another. No wonder you have problems "understanding me."
You don't make it easy JD
I write very precise. When you embellish or delete, you have changed my meaning --
Like the "Christ event" folk do with God's Word? (embellish/delete that is)
probably true for anyone. Just read my question.....but I have gien you an explanation above.
I did read your question JD and I have given you enough scripture to show what God expects before we will see victory over sin in our lives.
So where did I miss it? Also how exactly does the clear Word of Truth transform into a "proof text?"
There is a larger context for all of your scriptures - again, probably a truism - anyway, all of those scriptures seem to be used by you in the sense of "law' -
What "larger context"JD? God's moral law has not gone anyplace in fact it will be your Judge in the last day (John 12:48) John writes that he is not giving a new commandment but one that has been there
from the beginning. Why do you want to put some context into the clear Word of Truth?
"if you love me you will keep my commandments, my law" when, in fact, the keeping of the commandments is a personal issue, not a corporate one, and how I express my obedience to "Love God" and "love your neighbor as yourself" is not open to public approval .. when, in fact, we are not under law (Rom 2, 3).
Romans 2:3 is about judging ppl JD because this breaks the Royal Law. Actually loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves is a "corporate issue" because there will be no life and no peace in a Church full of ppl who are basically living a lie and serving the devil.
"He that says I know Him and keeps not his commandments is a liar but whoso keeps His Word, in Him verily is the love of God perfected" (1 John 2:4,5)
The love of God being perfected in a pure heart is the goal of the instruction. The is when "perfect love drives out fear" and we walk in power over all the power of the enemy.
