David, I have not overlooked your post...I have not had the time or energy
to do anything else than moderate and post a few one-liners...but I intend
to reply soon to the items in your post that I feel merit a response.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] Jesus of the Bible
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 01:39:46 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, it appears that you conveniently chose the similarities to focus on.
DAVEH: I chose 3.....two of which we agreed, and one that we did not. I
did it as a simple example to demonstrate a principle. That I may or may
not believe the things you say below to emphasize the differences in how we
perceive the attributes of Jesus, it does not mean that we are not talking
about the same Jesus of the Bible who died on a cross and was resurrected 3
days later. To both of us....he is our Savior and Redeemer.
Rather than get into long involved discussions about the validity of
each of your below points, let me point out that you are not defining Jesus
as you perceive him, but rather your are trying to define him by telling us
what you think he isn't. How does that tell anybody what you believe to be
the real Jesus, Perry? You seem more intent on dealing me out of the game
rather than explain what you believe about Jesus.
How do you know God does not have a spirit wife(s)??? Does the Bible
tell you he does not? How do you know Jesus' Father in Heaven does not
have a body of flesh and bone? Does the Bible say such? Why do you think
Jesus is not from Kolob? Does you Bible say such? If the Bible does not
specifically say those things, then I assume you are offering opinions that
may or may not be as valid as mine? Rather than speculate on what you
think Jesus is not, why don't you tell us what you believe based on what
the Bible says.
For instance, I believe Jesus' Heavenly Father is a man, and I offer as
evidence that the Bible tells us Jesus is the Son of man. Now you may
disagree with my understanding of that, but what Bible evidence would you
offer to say that God is not a man?
As for Jesus not having genetic material, are you suggesting he did
not? The Bible doesn't say either way, I was just offering my opinion
based on my belief that I believe Jesus is the Son of God....the literal
Son of God. If you don't believe such, that's OK Perry. In this
instance, I may believe more in the literalness of Jesus' sonship than you.
FTR....I don't recall any official doctrines of the LDS Church saying
Jesus has genetic material of his Father. That is my speculation, and I
qualified it with a /so to speak /comment. I don't think there is anything
in the Bible to refute it....if so, I'm anxious to hear your argument.
As for your question #9, LDS theology teaches that Mary was a virgin in
the traditional sense of never being with a man, as you put it. While
there may be a few (and I stress FEW) LDS folks who may have suggested
otherwise, by far most (and I would put that at more than 99.99% of the
membership) agrees with the official LDS position that she was a virgin
prior to the birth of Jesus. If you do not understand my emphatic
explanation of that, and continue to mention such things in an attempt to
discredit my beliefs, you will be doing yourself the same disservice as
Kevin who stubbornly holds on to a lie to his own detriment.
So Perry, is the Jesus I believe died on the cross to bring us
salvation through his grace the same Jesus you believe was crucified to
bring you salvation? What is not in the Bible is speculation. What
counts is the Jesus who is revealed in the Bible to be our Messiah. Do you
disagree?
Now Perry....we are back to the problem you presented when you accused
me of being on TT to preach Mormonism. You (and others) continue to bring
up LDS related stuff and push it in my face. As you know....there is no
point in my discussing LDS stuff with you, considering your voiced intent
is to denigrate anything to do with Mormonism. However, do you want to
discuss Jesus as he is presented in the Bible? If so, that might make a
meaningful discussion. I will avoid bringing latter-day revelation into
the discussion (except perhaps obliquely), and I would expect you not to
bring post Biblical dogma like the Trinity Doctrine to the discussion.
Then we could look at Jesus simply as seen through the eyes of the Bible.
Does that appeal to you (or anybody else)?
I will change the subject line to reflect this new thread should
anybody wish to pursue it. And BTW.....I really have no idea of how it
will turn out. Without my LDS related extra-Biblical material, I may be up
a creek without the proverbial paddle. For anybody willing to engage me,
I will endeavor to be polite and not give a sucker punch when and if the
opportunity avails itself. Likewise, I would expect those on the other
side of the table to treat me as they would want to be treated. Fair
enough? Any takers.......?
If so, I will state a few of the things I believe the Bible says about
Jesus that I agree with......
1. Jesus existed in the pre-mortal existence and was foreordained to be
the Savior
2. Jesus was born of a virgin
3. Jesus did not sin while in mortality
4. Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.
.......That seems like a simple start. Does anybody disagree? If so,
present Biblical evidence and let's talk about it. If you agree with all
the above, what additional attributes do you believe about Jesus and I will
offer my opinion in return. In not too may posts, I suspect we will get
into stuff where we don't agree, and then hopefully the discussion will
provide some insightful thoughts. I just implore anybody who gets involved
to keep the discussion on the table and avoid getting down into the mud.
Let me mention a few differences.
1. Is you jesus a procreated being from your god and one of his spirit
wives? Not Mine.
2. Is your jesus the brother of Satan? Not mine.
3. Is the father of your jesus flesh and bones? not mine.
4. Was the father of your jesus once a man? Not mine.
5. Did the father of your jesus have a father? Not mine.
6. Id the father of your jesus from Kolob? not mine.
7. Did the father of your jesus have multiple spirit wives? not mine.
8. Are your jesus, and his father, and the holy spirit 3 gods? Not mine.
9. In the mormon paradigm, does virgin mean "young girl", or "never been
with a man"?
10. Where in the Bible does it say god's genetic material ended up in
mary? Where does it even say god HAS genetic material.
Dave, in my opinion (and evidently in the opinoin of many) they are not
the same. You have said it yourself...all false religions contain some of
the truth...mormonism is no exception.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:03:05 -0700
* the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus.*
DAVEH: Perhaps I should have explained myself a bit better, Perry.
What I was objecting to was your above comment. I don't see where it is
anybody's job to denigrate, berate or disqualify another's belief about
Jesus. Regardless what you may think I believe or not believe about
Jesus....My Jesus is my Savior, just as he is your Savior.
As I see it....you, Kevin, Lance or any other person (Christian or
not) can explain their belief in Jesus as they perceive him. Then I (or
anybody else) can agree that I believe the same way, or not. For
instance....
FWIW....I may be wrong in my assumptions of what you believe about
the following, but follow along to get a feel for what I am trying to
say:
1) I assume you believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother. I believe
the same.
2) As I understand it, you believe Jesus was conceived by the Holy
Ghost. I do not. I believe he is literalerally the Son of God, being
conceived of the genetic (if that is the correct term) material of our
Heavenly Father by the power of the Holy Ghost.
3) You believe Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.
I believe the same.
Now, the above is a somewhat simplistic example, but I think it
illustrates the point. On two of the three points we agree. On one we
disagree. Does that mean that we believe in two totally different
Saviors? Not in my opinion.
You are probably asking what this has to do with the original
discussion. The point I am trying to make is that if you were to single
out my believe that Jesus is the literal Son of God as evidence that I
believe in a different Jesus than you do.....well.....you might have to
say that I believe the Bible too much when I quote a myriad of passages
supporting my perspective view about Jesus. Does the fact that we might
have two different perspectives about Jesus' paternal attributes mean
that we are talking about two different people? If not....then what
point is there in trying to prove what the person believes is wrong. It
doesn't change the fact that we are still talking about Jesus who was
born of a virgin and died on a cross in our behalf.
Now....If you said you believed in the Jesus who died on the cross
and was resurrected, and I said I believed in the Jesus who sold tacos in
Mexico.....then it becomes obvious that we are talking about different;
people. You would not have to prove anything about my Jesus being the
wrong one. There would be nothing in common between them to tie them
together.
Yikes....I think I'm rambling on now. I hope I adequately explained
why I said what I did. If you want clarification, just ask.
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
Wait a minute! I agree with you and then you tell me I have it
backwards? How does that work?
You said, "Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I
believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't believe
in Jesus."
I responded, "I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus,
and the onus is on us to prove him to not be the same as our Jesus."
And now you say, "You've got that a bit backwards, Perry."
Aren't you in essence, then saying that YOU had it a bit backwards
since I was agreeing with you?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:25:39 -0700
DAVEH: You've got that a bit backwards, Perry. The onus is on you
to prove (explain might be a better word) your Jesus.....I don't recall
seeing much of that on TT.....other than he created the world, was born
of a virgin, died and was resurrected.....all of which I believe. Is
there more you (TTers) want to say about your belief about Jesus?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,
I think you are right. You are entitled to your jesus, and
** I feel we have done that. Repeatedly. But, you do not accept our
evidence, and I suppose short of having a vision, you never will.
You have not said our Jesus is a false jesus because, since you say
you beleive in the same Jesus we believe in, that would be like
shooting yourself in the foot.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Belief
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:55:30 -0700
DAVEH: Logically, the onus is not upon me to define the Jesus I
believe in, but rather it is on the person who suggests I don't
believe in Jesus. FTR....I have not said that the Jesus Kevin, you
Perry or any other TTer believes in is a false Jesus.
Lance Muir wrote:
DaveH says "Kevin, I believe in Jesus." IFF we are going to engage
in a conversation that entails reality, then we have to continue to
build upon that which has been said previously.According to you THE
JESUS TO BE BELIEVED IN IS MOST FULLY AND ACCURATELY DESCRIBED
WITHIN MORMON TEACHING. Is this so? The Jesus believed in by Kevin,
Perry, Lance et al is a false Jesus. Is this not also so? (unwieldy
but, you get my point)What, IYO, are the eternal consequenses for
non-Mormons? Mr. Moderator:Please grant DaveH the opportunity of
fully answering and, explaining.
DAVEH: FTR Kevin, I believe in Jesus. Therefore can we
conclude
that you've made the judgment rather than God?
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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