On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Ep 2;1 And
you hath he quickened,
who WERE dead in trespasses and
> sins
>
>
Quickened as in made ALIVE those that were DEAD....
>
>
problem is so many were never made alive
>
> --- Bill
Taylor <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> > That's a fine conjecture, Izzy. But it is
only that. Yours is not
> a
> > definitive answer.
There may also be other ways to address and
> > understand
this statement. I am simply attempting to demonstrate
>
that
> > you are calling upon a doctrine to explain that
which is not
> stated
> > explicitly. If you want to
call this a "doctrine of men," then
> that
> > is
fine. If you want to call it the God's honest true, you can do
>
> that, too -- as long as you realize that it is conjecture either
> way.
> >
> > Bill
> >
----- Original Message -----
> > From:
ShieldsFamily
> > To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:43 AM
>
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
>
>
> >
> > I understand your
viewpoint. However I don't know how else I
>
would
> > describe the lost-even Jesus said "Let the dead
(obviously not
> > physically, but spiritually) bury the
dead." izzy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Bill
> Taylor
> > Sent:
Monday, July 18, 2005 10:30 PM
> > To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
>
>
> >
> >
>
> I agree that there is a possibility that two people
can come to
> > similar conclusions without the necessity of
collaboration, but I
> > find it highly unlikely that they
would call their doctrine by the
> > same name and this when
the words themselves are not found in the
> > Scriptures.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Moreover, one would have to have received her
theology in a cave
> not to have heard of "spiritual
death" on many occasions throughout
> > her Christian
experience. This doctrine is one of the most
> commonly
>
> touted beliefs in the church -- thanks to Augustine and
the
> > tremendous impact he has had on Christendom.
>
>
> >
> >
>
> I am very content to believe that Judy did not know
that
> Augustine
> > is the one who first articulated
this belief, but I am reluctant
> to
> > accept that
she came to it on her own. It is far too popular a
> >
teaching for that to have happened. As with the rest of us, I
am
> > confident that she too has heard this language since
her earliest
> > experience with Christianity. And so I
rather suspect that she has
> > been taught this doctrine as
if it were right there in the Bible.
> > Thus it functions as
an a priori in her beliefs.
> >
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> > From: ShieldsFamily
> >
> > To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >
> > Sent: Monday, July
18, 2005 9:54 PM
> >
> >
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
> >
>
>
> >
>
> I was thinking of when people assume that
jt or someone else
> got
> > their doctrines from
someone else when perhaps they didn't. Just
> > because
a teaching is "out there" doesn't mean it necessarily
> >
affected someone who believes along the same lines. Would you
> agree?
> > iz
> >
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Bill
> Taylor
> >
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 9:52 PM
>
> To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I get your
drift. But I am not so dishonest as to claim
> > this is how
it happened in my case.
> >
>
>
> >
>
> Bill
> >
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From:
ShieldsFamily
> >
>
> To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> >
> > Sent:
Monday, July 18, 2005 9:38 PM
> >
>
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk]
Re:John 16:13,14
> >
>
>
> >
>
> Just a note: If someone
learns a truth from the Lord via the
> > scriptures or direct
revelation from the Holy Spirit, might not
> they
> >
also be in agreement (without even knowing it) with someone else
> who
> > learned and taught that same truth in
previous generations? If so,
> > that does not mean that the
first one who learned it imparted it
> to
> > the one
who learned it later, does it? That also does not mean the
>
> second person who learned it owes anything to the first
person.
> And
> > it does not mean the first one
who learned it was an "authority"
> for
> > the second
one, who might never have even heard anything about the
> >
first one. One can't just assume that because a "famous"
person
> > wrote about a certain doctrine that this has
affected someone else
> > who may have the same/similar
doctrine. Get my drift? izzy
> >
>
>
> >
>
>
> >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Bill
> Taylor
>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005
8:50 PM
> > To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
Re:John 16:13,14
> >
>
>
> >
>
> David writes >
I don't think I have seen anybody tout
> Wesley
> > or
Dake as authoritative,
> >
>
> I suppose in a narrow sense
you are partially correct,
> David. I
> > seem to
remember Judy quoting Dake at length and verbatim, yet she
>
> did it without even so much as a fleeting reference in his
> direction.
> > Hence I concur with you, in that,
while she used his beliefs
> > authoritatively in her
argumentation, she did it in a way that can
> > hardly be
construed as that of touting him.
> >
>
> This raises some interesting
questions, though, concerning
> what
> > it means to
treat another man's beliefs as "authoritative." Must
>
one
> > cite another person, when using his words, before he
or she is
> > complicit in treating his beliefs as
authoritative? I think not,
> but
> > I am curious
what you think. And does one have to cite another's
> >
influence upon her theology, before she has made his beliefs
>
> "authoritative" in her frame of reference? Again, I don't think
> so,
> > but I am wondering what you think. For
example, Judy espouses a
> > "spiritual death" doctrine, yet
refuses to acknowledge that the
> > doctrine she espouses was
first set forth by Augustine. My
> question
> > is
this: Does this doctrine not govern her thoughts as it relates
> to
> > the human condition? Stated another way, does
it not act
> > authoritatively in her belief system? I think
it does. And this
> > whether she admits to Augustinian
influences or not. But again I
> am
> > wondering what
you think.
> >
>
>
> >
>
> Or are you suggesting
something different? Like, for
> instance,
> > if I
say, "This is how it is -- blah, blah, blah," then you might
>
say
> > that there is nothing authoritative about that,
because those are
> > just my own beliefs. But if I say,
"Dake or Augustine says this is
> > how it is -- blah, blah,
blah," then you will respond that I am
> > setting forth
Dake's beliefs or Augustine's beliefs as
>
authoritative,
> > and that they have now become the
"doctrines of men." Is that how
> it
> > works? What
if they were really Dake's beliefs all along -- and I
> >
mean his words verbatim -- but I just acted as though they were
my
> > own, would that make a difference as far as their
"authoritative"
> > quotient in your estimation?
> >
> > These are the things
that I am wondering about, because I am
> > trying to
understand what makes the espousal of one man's beliefs
> >
more "authoritative," in your eyes, than the espousal of
another
> > man's beliefs. In fact, I find it rather
disturbing that you are
> so
> > willing to give
yourself and others a pass on this, but want to
> take
>
> issue with me concerning Barth and Torrance. The truth is, I
have
> > written very sparingly concerning Barth, although I
do esteem him
> > highly. And I have been very candid
throughout about both my
> > appreciation of Torrance and the
influence he has had upon the
> > formation of my beliefs --
which is indeed quite significant. But
> > David, I want to
say, so what? It is obvious that Wesley has had a
> > similar
impact upon the formation of your beliefs. What's the big
> >
deal about admitting this? Why are you so set on equivocating at
> this
> > point? I don't get it.
> >
> > David writes
> some on TruthTalk do believe in doctrines of
> >
men. Do you agree?
> >
>
> Yes, David, I do. But I would
not agree that this is prima
> > facie a negative
thing.
> >
> >
Bill
> >
> >
>
> ----- Original Message
-----
> > From: "David
Miller" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> To: <
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
>
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005
10:59 AM
> > Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
> >
> >
>
> > JD wrote:
>
> > >>> Not one
person on this site believes in
>
> > >>> "doctrines
of men."
> > >
>
> > David Miller
wrote:
> > > >>
I hope that you allow that some of us have a different
>
> > >> perspective on
this point. Some here tout Joseph Smith
>
> > >> while others
tout Barth and Torrance.
>
> >
>
> > Bill wrote:
>
> > > ... and others
Wesley and Dake. What's your point?
>
> >
>
> > I don't think I have
seen anybody tout Wesley or Dake as
> > authoritative,
at
> > > least not on
the level of Joseph Smith, Barth, or
> Torrance,
> >
but in any
> >
case,
> > > my point
is that some on TruthTalk do believe in doctrines
> of
>
> men. Do you
>
> > agree?
>
> >
>
> > Peace be with
you.
> > > David
Miller.
> > >
>
> > ----------
>
> > "Let your speech be
always with grace, seasoned with salt,
> > that you
may
> > know how you
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
>
>
http://www.InnGlory.org>
> >
>
> > If you do not want to
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> an
> > email
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> >
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> > you have
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> > friend who wants to
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>
>
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>
> >
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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> ----------
> "Let your speech be always
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> may know how you
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