Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:36:14 -0700

Judy, I do not operate under a construct that fuses Jesus into an alloy -- some sort of hybrid, not really God and not really human, but something similar to both, like a demigod. That is heresy! His humanity is not his divinity, and his divinity is not his humanity. There is no confusion between the two natures. Hence as man he was human in every way that we are, yet as God he was able to overcome that which overtakes us. Two natures in one person, Jesus Christ -- fully God and fully man: do you get it? And I'm not asking if you agree; I'm asking if you are able to draw the distinctions necessary to apprehend my position. While fully commensurate and fully equal with both God and man, the relationship between Christ's divinity and his humanity is asymmetrical: in moments of crisis the divinity always won out over the humanity; hence HE NEVER EVER ENGAGED IN ANY TRESPASSES. Please, either accept this as my position and ADDRESS it as such, or be silent about it altogether.
 
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

 
 
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:37:48 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
JD wrote  >  Judy,  I am pretty sure that Bill believes that Christ was God on earth and you do not. 
 
JT > Why would you believe that JD?  Isn't Bill the one saying that Jesus came to earth in sin and trespasses? 
 
Absolutely not! Moreover, I believe Jesus was fully God and fully man in one person -- and you know this quite well because we have discussed it at length on numerous occasions, so why the slanderous dishonesty?
 
No slanderous dishonesty Bill; if I can read at all this is what you are saying here:
 
BT: Now let's look again at Jesus. If Jesus was born with our sinful flesh, as the Scriptures attest, and if sinful flesh is spiritually dead, then he too had to have been spiritually dead in his sinful flesh, just as we are in our sinful flesh. Why? because he came in the likeness of our flesh. And so the obvious question is this: At what point did he become spiritually alive -- was it when he was circumcised? or as a boy at his bar mitzvah? was it at his baptism? his resurrection? when was it? Did he too have to be "born again" in order to become spiritually alive? When was his "spirit" revived?
 
You are saying right here (above) that the scriptures attest that Jesus was born with sinful flesh and what I am
saying is that sin is abhorrent to God who is holy.  Jesus is holy.  The Holy Spirit is holy.  Do you have a problem
with this?
 
Mr. Moderator, I think it is time for some intervention.  Bill
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14

 
 
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:40:16 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Judy,  I am pretty sure that Bill believes that Christ was God on earth and you do not.  
 
Why would you believe that JD?  Isn't Bill the one saying that Jesus came to earth in sin and trespasses? 
 
Have I misunderstood your position?  JD 
 
I think you've misunderstood both of us.  I am the one pointing out that he is heavenly and we are of the
earth or earthly - (John 3:31) that is until we take upon ourselves the heavenly at the New Birth.  jt
 

From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

If you don't want to respond Bill I don't mind.  I'm not sure what points you have actually made other than that
you are not open to what I have written here.  You seem to believe that Jesus was exactly like us. I have given
you scripture here that says he wasn't like us - because we are earthly and He is and always has been heavenly. 
Just that one point should be enough but I'm sure it's not and like Izzy I am not really interested in the theories
of the ancients but if you want to discuss scripture.  fine.
 
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:47:37 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Judy, if you want to tone down the rhetoric and respond again, this time actually address the points I have made, I will be happy to respond to you.
 
Bill
 
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:15:23 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Bill: There are numerous reasons why I reject this doctrine, Izzy, the foremost of which is because I believe it is impossible for Jesus to have been "spiritually dead" at any point in his lifetime.
 
jt: I would agree with the above. I don't believe it possible for the Lord of Life to have been in sin or spiritually dead myself.
 
Bill: Paul tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" and that it was in his flesh that he destroyed sin.
 
jt: What scripture do you refer to above?  Rom 8:3 says he condemned sin in the flesh; also I would note that he came in
the "likeness" of sinful flesh and a likeness is not the real thing, it is always a similitude.
 
Bill: I believe that it is absolutely essential that Christ had to assume sinful flesh in order to save us in our sinful flesh. If he did not have the same flesh as we, then he did not defeat sin in our flesh -- it's as simple as that. Hence we are still in our sin and he did nothing to restore or revive us in his resurrection.
 
jt: If the above is your condition for salvation Bill then you are still in your sin.  He had no sin in His flesh all of his sufferings were for us.
He condemned sin in the flesh and sent us "dunamis" or power so that we can agree with Him and condemn sin in our own flesh daily walking after the Spirit and free from it's power.
 
Stated another way, if he was born with flesh other than our kind, which is "sinful," then he may have avoided sin in his kind of flesh, but he left us in the sin of ours; hence he is not our Savior. 
 
jt: Then you deny the offense of the cross and He is not your Savior Bill.
 
According to the classic doctrine of spiritual death, "sinful flesh" is "spiritually dead" (read David's very helpful posting of Augustine on this). The term "sinful flesh" is thus itself a metaphor for the entire person living in a fallen state and a sin nature.
 
jt: Nonsense, Augustine has nothing to do with anything.  Sin is a spiritual problem and it would be best to leave Augustine out of this and stay with sola scripture.. 
 
Bill: And since this nature is spiritually dead, it has no ability or desire to seek God. It must be "quickened" before it can be restored and become "spiritually alive."
 
jt: The above is Calvin not Bible.  Calvin is the one who says one has to be regenerated before they can be saved; scripture says that "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"
 
Bill: The common belief is that we are made spiritually alive at the point that we are "born again." This is not a problem for a strict "Calvinist" because he believes that God determines who will be born again and, based upon that decree, reaches down, so to speak, and quickens those whom he wills to save, thus restoring them to spiritual life. But if one does not hold to this view, it presents a real problem: How can one who is dead make a free-will determination to believe and hence be born again so as to be made alive? Cadavers can not make choices, let alone act upon them.
 
jt: How does a cadaver sin Bill?  You need to dispense with both Augustine and Calvin and their metaphors and let the light of Christ shine where they have been.
 
Hence those who are not strict Calvinists must equivocate at this point and treat the "spirit" aspect of personhood as if it were not so dead as to not be able to respond to God's call -- which is really to say that it is not dead at all, perhaps really sick: but not "spiritually" dead. Here the desire is to hold onto the classic language but not so tightly as to be true to or consistent with its ramifications. I say just drop the language; it holds no authority over us, since it is non-biblical terminology.
 
jt: Of course it is Biblical terminology - mankind is "spirit, soul, and body" remember?  It is terms like "cadaver" that are not Biblical and hold no authority.
 
Now let's look again at Jesus. If Jesus was born with our sinful flesh, as the Scriptures attest, and if sinful flesh is spiritually dead, then he too had to have been spiritually dead in his sinful flesh, just as we are in our sinful flesh.
 
jt: Jesus was not born with OUR sinful flesh Bill.  His father was God - remember?  So the sins of the fathers did not apply to him. He came to be our substitue/sacrifice.
 
Bill: Why? because he came in the likeness of our flesh. And so the obvious question is this: At what point did he become spiritually alive -- was it when he was circumcised? or as a boy at his bar mitzvah? was it at his baptism? his resurrection? when was it? Did he too have to be "born again" in order to become spiritually alive? When was his "spirit" revived?
 
jt: Elementary Bill.  He was not ever dead in trespass and sin - that is US and when he took our burden upon Himself at Calvary the light went out (because He is the light) and that generation experienced 3hrs of darkness and it wasn't the power company.
 
Bill: I believe that Jesus was always spiritually alive and that from his earliest childhood, he was in intimate communion with his Father. He was acutely attuned to his spiritual dimension and allowed that aspect of his personhood to direct the other aspects.
 
jt: Well then he wouldn't have been walking in trespass and sin Bill while "finely attuned to his spiritual dimension" would he?
 
Hence he walked in faithfulness to his Father with every step, even "beating his way forward with blows," as Luke states it. In other words, there was not a time when he was not alive and living out his right relationship with his Father in absolute obedience.
 
jt: Where does Luke say he "beat his way forward with blows?"  Why would he have to do that since the Prince of this world had nothing in Him? (John 14:30).  If He had been born in trespass & sin the Prince of this world would have had something in Him and a claim on Him.
 
Yet if spiritual death is a requisite of personhood in sinful flesh, then this cannot be true; for either Christ had to have been "quickened" or born again in order to accomplish the things he did in his flesh, or he did not come to us as we are -- in the likeness of sinful flesh; hence he could not have saved us in our sinful state. Bill
 
jt: Straw man argument Bill.  Christ was never spiritually dead.  He is from above remember?  We are from the earth and earthly (John 3:31) - He that is from heaven is ABOVE ALL, so I would think that this ends this false analogy.
 
 
 
 
 
 

Reply via email to