Luke 2.52 in the Greek. Which greek? UBS? NA? Which edition? 24? 25? 26? 27? Which printing? Older or newer?
--- Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bill in red. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ShieldsFamily > To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 10:33 AM > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > > Izzy in blue: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:15 AM > To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 > > > > I know I'm not up on your doctrinal issues, Bill, so please tell me > why you seem to reject the idea of someone being spiritually dead > prior to being born again of the Spirit. I'd appreciate it. izzy > > > > > > There are numerous reasons why I reject this doctrine, Izzy, the > foremost of which is because I believe it is impossible for Jesus to > have been "spiritually dead" at any point in his lifetime. True. > > > > Paul tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" and > that it was in his flesh that he destroyed sin. I believe that it is > absolutely essential that Christ had to assume sinful flesh in order > to save us in our sinful flesh. If he did not have the same flesh as > we, then he did not defeat sin in our flesh -- it's as simple as > that. Hence we are still in our sin and he did nothing to restore or > revive us in his resurrection. Stated another way, if he was born > with flesh other than our kind, which is "sinful," then he may have > avoided sin in his kind of flesh, but he left us in the sin of ours; > hence he is not our Savior. I don't follow you here, Bill. We ARE > still in our sinful flesh unless/until we are born again of the > Spirit, as Jesus told Nicodemus. Jesus accomplished that deliverance > (to those who become born again) for us on the cross. I undertand the > distinction you are drawing, Izzy, and it is a very common and > "orthodox" one at that; however I am not convinced that this "born > again" event is something which happens at a point in our > twenty-first century lifetime. I am leaning instead toward the view > that were "born again" in Christ in his resurrection. You can read my > comments to Kevin for more on this. > > > > According to the classic doctrine of spiritual death, "sinful > flesh" is "spiritually dead" (read David's very helpful posting of > Augustine on this). The term "sinful flesh" is thus itself a metaphor > for the entire person living in a fallen state and a sin nature. Yes, > I believe that. And since this nature is spiritually dead, it has no > ability or desire to seek God. In itself, this is true-God must > extend His grace to woo us. It must be "quickened" before it can be > restored and become "spiritually alive." The common belief is that we > are made spiritually alive at the point that we are "born again." > Exactly. This is not a problem for a strict "Calvinist" because he > believes that God determines who will be born again and, based upon > that decree, reaches down, so to speak, and quickens those whom he > wills to save, thus restoring them to spiritual life. Then I guess > I'm not a strict Calvinist (being unacquainted with his teachings), > because I believe God extends His grace to every one of his > creatures, but most ignore or refuse it. See the parable of the > wedding feast: all are called but few are chosen. I agree. But if one > does not hold to this view, it presents a real problem: How can one > who is dead make a free-will determination to believe and hence be > born again so as to be made alive? Cadavers can not make choices, let > alone act upon them. Hence those who are not strict Calvinists must > equivocate at this point and treat the "spirit" aspect of personhood > as if it were not so dead as to not be able to respond to God's call > -- which is really to say that it is not dead at all, perhaps really > sick: but not "spiritually" dead. Here the desire is to hold onto the > classic language but not so tightly as to be true to or consistent > with its ramifications. I say just drop the language; it holds no > authority over us, since it is non-biblical terminology. See my > previous sentence. "Dead" is a term Jesus used about living human > beings, so I don't think it is unbiblical language. I am not saying > that "dead" is un-biblical language, Izzy; I am saying that the > language of "spiritual" death is non-biblical terminology, and as > such does not carry the degree of authorigy that Scriptural language > would carry. It is therefore open to a higher degree of scrutiny on > our part, if we so desire. > > > > Now let's look again at Jesus. If Jesus was born with our sinful > flesh, as the Scriptures attest, and if sinful flesh is spiritually > dead, then he too had to have been spiritually dead in his sinful > flesh, just as we are in our sinful flesh. Why? because he came in > the likeness of our flesh. And so the obvious question is this: At > what point did he become spiritually alive -- was it when he was > circumcised? or as a boy at his bar mitzvah? was it at his baptism? > his resurrection? when was it? Did he too have to be "born again" in > order to become spiritually alive? When was his "spirit" revived? > Jesus was never spiritually dead because Jesus never sinned. I agree > that you are presenting a "third" viewpoint here. I'll address it > below. Did you forget about that? No! He had the temptation to sin, > and was tempted in all ways that we are, but He never sinned. I fully > agree. Sin is what separates us from the Father and sends us to > hell-not our weak, human nature (if it does not sin). I disagree with > a few caveats, but I would rather not discuss it here; it get us off > track and onto another discussion. > > > > I believe that Jesus was always spiritually alive and that from his > earliest childhood, he was in intimate communion with his Father. So > do I. He was acutely attuned to his spiritual dimension and allowed > that aspect of his personhood to direct the other aspects. Hence he > walked in faithfulness to his Father with every step, even "beating > his way forward with blows," as Luke states it. What scripture is > that? What translation? Luke 2.52 in the Greek. Check it out. The > background of these words are fascinating. If you would like some > assistence, I am at your beckon call. In other words, there was not a > time when he was not alive and living out his right relationship with > his Father in absolute obedience. Yet if spiritual death is a > requisite of personhood in sinful flesh, then this cannot be true; > for either Christ had to have been "quickened" or born again in order > to accomplish the things he did in his flesh, or he did not come to > us as we are -- in the likeness of sinful flesh; hence he could not > have saved us in our sinful state. You have presented only two > viewpoints. I think I have presented a third. So what do you think > of that? izzy > > > > Hi Izzy, you seem to be presenting a nicely nuanced position here; > it is in fact quite similar to one which I came to at a point in my > sojourn. I would like to set it forth as best I can to see if indeed > I apprehend what you are saying. > > > > Humans are born spiritually alive and remain in that state until > they willfully sin, at which point they die spiritually and must be > born again if they are to gain eternal life. This is different than > the classic doctrine in that the classic teaches that humans are born > physically alive but spiritually dead and this because they are "born > in sin." Paul could be understood to be setting your view forth in > Romans 7.9 -- "I was alive once without the law, but when the > commandment came, sin revived and I died." > > > > Before I go on, Izzy, am I close to a right representation of your > view? > > > > Bill > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
