The greater message here is that those who choose not to follow Jesus are
"spiritually dead". That is, they do not have the Spirit of the Lord
dwelling in them. The man he chose as an example wanted to tarry from
following Jesus until his father passed away, thus putting his family above
Jesus.
From: "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:33:26 -0600
Would someone else please step in and help Judy through this? I would very
much appreciate it.
Thanks,
Bill
From: Judy Taylor
Bill wrote: I actually don't think we've got that much left to argue
about. Both you and Judy have said that you do not think of "spiritual
death" as literally being dead in the spirit. Hence you are both treating
your concept as a metaphor, and this whether you realize it or not, and so
I don't really have an issue with either of your positions.
jt: Why can't we just call life what God calls it and death what God
calls it? Why do we have to qualify with all of these advanced
linguistics?
In response to David's expressed concerns, Judy wrote: This does not
mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead -
it means that if something does not change they will inherit both at the
last day.
And in response to her, you (Izzy) wrote: A "spiritually dead" person is
going to hell when he physically dies. He already doesn't "get it" about
things of the Spirit. And you also wrote to me, If folks in that condition
die to today they are hell-bound. ... It simply defines for us that they
are not actually physically dead yet. These statements treat "spiritual
death" in a metaphorical sense and not a literal one.
jt: Sounds to me as though you are evading the point Bill - what
difference does the word make life is life and death is death so far as God
is concerned - now what does He mean by this concept?
You ask in a separate post what the difference is between us? The
difference is this: I let the word "death" or "dead" supply the metaphor
without adding "spiritual" to it. You add a word and then treat the two --
spiritual + death -- as a metaphor for something else, as you both explain
above.
jt: I have a question. What kind of death is God talking about then?
In the garden Adam died the day he ate from the wrong tree, yet he lived
another 960yrs physically and the whole time he had a working body, a
conscious soul, and a spirit (albeit one that had lost communion with God).
Since a metaphor is defined as a similitude reduced to a single word -
your definition is in error. God is not using similitude or metaphor here
- When He says "death" he means "death" and since the death Adam
experienced that day was not physical, nor was it alzheimers (brain or soul
death). What do you suppose it was?
Why do I have a problem with this? Because of that centuries-old
doctrine of "spiritual death," which literally does refer to one's spirit
as being dead until it is regenerated.
jt: You are not dealing with the truth of scripture then. You are
dealing with some "centuries old doctrine of man"
Neither of you seem to "get it" that "spiritual death" is not biblical
language; it is a doctrine which speaks to biblical concepts; it is a
synthesis, a conclusion. You have picked up on the language of this
doctrine, but the concepts that it represents are treated differently by
you than by those who adhere to the classic doctrine.
jt: No Bill - You are the one hamstrung by this doctrine. I am not
dealing with any such thing and neither is Izzy; the dead burying their
dead is not speaking of physical or soulish death since they were able to
dig a hole and had presence of mind enough not to let a dead body just lay
around.
Yet, how am I to know that this is what you are doing when I see you
using the language of that old doctrine? I can't know that you are using it
differently, until after I have been through a very long process with you.
Why not drop the language and then, when it is necessary, explain your
concept by using "death" as the metaphor which speaks to your perceived
conclusions? At least this way people will not be so likely to
misunderstand you going in.
jt: Why would Izzy and I assume that everyone we speak to has a load of
"centuries old" doctrines of men to wade through?
I had none until I began reading extra biblical stuff and as soon as I
saw the conflict with the written word I layed it down fast. My
daughter-in-law has a newly energized hunger for God and she is asking me
about commentaries because we live in a fast food era where we want
everything yesterday. However, I hesitate because I don't want to fill
that God-given hunger with error that will slow her down. Better for her
to see it in God's Word.
And yes, there is a spiritual element included in this metaphor, but it
is actually quite more than spiritual: those who reject Christ are doing so
with their entire being -- mind, body, soul, and spirit. I would like to
quote a verse and then ask you a couple questions. "Then Jesus said to
them, 'A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the
light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know
where he is going'" (John 12.35). Do you agree with me that the "darkness"
in which the rebellious man walks is not literal darkness; in other words
he may be walking in daylight, yet still be walking in darkness in
accordance with this passage? If you agree with me, it is because you are
able to recognize a metaphor in Jesus' statement. "Darkness" here refers to
a state other than literal darkness. Do you agree with me?
jt: This is not a metaphor either Bill - it is spiritual reality. Satan
and his demons are darkness. God is light and in Him is no darkness at
all. When we will not come to the light, or walk in the light - darkness
is there to pursue us. Nothing metaphoric
about that.
Allow me to quote a portion from the following verse: "While you have
the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." Do
you recognize the metaphorical thrust in these words? Jesus is not asking
these people to worship light as an abstract energy, nor does he want them
to be fire worshipers or children of the sun; he expects them to worship
instead that which is represented by the word "light." In other words, he
expected them to draw a correct inference from the metaphorical language he
employed. He expected them to pick up on the metaphor and understand by it
that he wants them to believe in him, that they might become his followers.
Do you agree with me?
jt: Jesus Words are not metaphor Bill. They are Spirit and they are
Life. A biblical metphor is in Psalm 91:4 where it speaks of God's
feathers and his wings - We know he is not a bird.
This is the same thing which is happening with the verse you are asking
me about: "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." Jesus knows
quite well that he has employed a metaphor in this statement. He knows that
his hearers will realize that dead people cannot bury dead people. Hence he
knows that they will not be able to take his statement literally; they will
have to conclude that the first death is representative of something other
than yet similar to the second death: in other words, they will know it is
a metaphor. And so, what will they conclude that this metaphor is
representative of? They will conclude that it is representative of their
condition in refusal of him. Yes, this condition includes a spiritual
aspect, but not only that. They were entirely helpless and hopeless without
him; and it was very important for them to draw that conclusion; hence they
needed to realize that he was telling them that in a state of denial, they
were as good as dead, as hopeless and helpless as the guy who was about to
be buried.
jt: You sure make something terribly complicated out of one sentence
Bill. How would you expect thest ppl to have such a
wide ranging overview which includes first and second deaths? Jesus was
sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
remember? God's back-slidden covenant ppl born under the law and his
ministry consisted of travelling around teaching and healing all who were
oppressed of the devil. How would these ppl have refused something that
had not yet been offered?
John's baptism was one of repentance and Jesus taught Israel about the
Kingdom of God which became available post
resurrection. judyt
----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
