Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death

[Judy Taylor]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:52:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1.   No one is talking about corpse or cadaver.   jt: Your friend has spoken of both in the past JD, you must have overlooked it.   Ask him.   Let's put some money on it Judy.   No one is talking about cadaver's.   but monologue if you prefer.  2.  Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors.    jt: What kind of a death does scripture refer to then - How did Adam die that day in the garden when he  disobeyed God?  It wasn't physical and it wasn't intellectual.   As I see it,  they didn't.  "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death.   I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.      jt: Well here we go propagating the same error all over again.  Are you saying that God didn't mean what He said?  He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road.  Also a day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations.  Is God like a human parent who threatens but does not do anything?   3.   II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total -  and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered   -----   if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him  (IMO).   Disciples of Christ are not so judged.  JD   jt: Only problem is that the total man did not die JD; he was still able to understand simple directions and he continued as a living - breathing human being.  What he lost was his relationship with God who is a spirit.     The total man is dead already unless he uses what is already a part of his being to live the kind of life that validates what is pure and set apart in terms of lifestyle  (God at work within to both will and accomplish  ....)   Our choice RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE, is between life and death.   Every rich man, every whore, every legalist, every drugie has the same choice   ------------    life and death.   I know some who have made the connection (via repentance)  and are alive because they are on the right path, as it were  --   moving away from that wh ich so easily besets them while  (in Christ) being viewed as beyond judgment.   EVERYTHING about them  -  their mind, soul, spirit and body  --- improves because of their joint participation with the Spirit.   JD   jt: I have no problem with the above JD; there is a lot to be said for moving along on the right pat so long as it's the narrow road that leads to life.                     From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>     One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right?  The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look for a man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and life which testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors.   1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God?   No.  At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis)   God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth.   Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved?  Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone.   Are they unable to hear and understand?  No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the dead shall hear" (John 5:25) and when he said this the resurrection was future (John 5:28,29).  Jesus describes passing from death to life (see John 5:24)   In Acts Paul reasoned in the synagogue and persuaded both (unbelieving) Jews & Greeks to believe (Acts 18:4). Paul wrote to the church at Corinth "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade (unbelieving) men (2 Cor 5:11)   It is also good to note that the bible uses the word dead to describe saved people also: Romans 6:2,7,11 Being dead to sin (does not mean that it is now impossible for a believer to sin) Romans 6:8 - Dead with Christ Colossians 2:20  Dead to the basic principles of the world Galatians 2:19  I through the law died to the law; (dead to the law) Colossians 3:3 For you died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (believers are dead)             On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:53:25 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bill, It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes "spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "quickening". Check out these verses:   Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;   BT: Yes, and Paul clarifies in Eph 2.5 and Col 2.13 that this happened "together with Christ." When was Christ made alive from the dead? At his resurrection. When were we made alive together with him? At his resurrection. _____________________   Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)   BT: Again, it was while they were dead that something happened which made them alive (by grace they were saved). In other words, it had nothing to do with anything they did on their part. When did this quickening take place? "together with Christ." _____________________   Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;   BT: It was while they were yet dead that this took place, their forgiveness included. _____________________   1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:   BT: This is speaking of what Christ endured on our behalf as well as what he accomplished via his death and resurrection, he "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." _____________________   So, we might think of "spiritual death" as being "dead in trespasses and sins". It is when we come to believe and trust in Jesus (and all that it implies) that we are "quickened", or gain spiritual life.   BT: I know that this is what you believe, Perry, along with many other Christians today, but I ask you to consider how it is possible that your "belief" and "trust" have anything to do with this. Paul's tells us that this happened while his readers "were yet dead"; that is to say that they were in a state of death when Christ accomplished this quickening on their behalf. _____________________   How about these verses:   John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.   BT: I very much love this verse; it is one of my favorites. It speaks to the assurance of salvation for those who believe. Yet it does not take away from the possibility of salvation for some who do not believe -- and I am thinking primarily of people who have not rejected Jesus Christ. They are not necessarily condemned, although they lack the assurance of belief. _____________________   1 John 3:14 John We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.   BT: John's writings are rich with contrasts: light vs darkness; love vs hate; truth vs lies; life vs death; children of God vs children of the devil, and on and on. To conclude that this is all about spiritual life vs spiritual death is to miss much of the thrust of his writing. He is talking about "abiding" in God, which is to say that he is addressing our entire being, our whole person in relation to God, and not just the spiritual aspect. ______________________   If we can pass from death unto life if we are not dead first? Not physically dead, but spiritually dead.   BT: I am addressing this in a response to Izzy. You can watch for that post. In the meantime may I suggest that you do a study on the NT use of the word "regeneration"? Check it out for yourself and see if you don't agree with me that the NT does not use the term, as most modern Christians do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. That should sort of set the tone for my response. I think you shall find that this term is used not of existential experiences in the here and now, but of eschatological events -- when Christ returns and the quick and the dead are judged and all things shall be made anew. And if you press on, I believe you will also find that it is wholly bound up with the merciful activity of God alone in the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ our Savior; that it really has nothing to do with anything we have done ourselves.   'Til tomorrow evening sometime,   Bill