The Bible doesn't but you do or am I wrong to think
that the LDS teaches that god has the form of a man just
like us and that he is as we (men that is) once were
and are in the process of becoming again? judyt
DAVEH: I don't think the Bible mentions that, Judy.
Judy Taylor wrote:
Was Moses Mooned DaveH? Now I've heard
everything..........judyt
Of course in your view it MUST be His person to fit LDS
doctrine
If it was his Physical Form that passed by
Pray Tell, what exactly did Moses see when he saw God's
Back Parts?
DAVEH: Yes Kevin, I must view it from my LDS
perspective. What I don't understand is why you don't also
view it in a similar way, since the Bible says.......
[23] And I
will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back
parts: but my face shall not be seen.
.........What am I
missing here, Kevin? It seems like a very plain and straight forward
passage that explains that God wanted Moses to see the back parts of his
body. Do you disagree??? Either Moses saw God's back parts, or
he didn't. The Bible says that he would see them. I believe he
did. Are you really saying he didn't??? Rather
than play word games, Kevin....just answer it plainly and simply.
YES Moses did see God's back parts........or.......NO, Moses
did not see God's back parts. Which do you believe,
Kevin???
Kevin Deegan wrote:
It is just as written:
EX 3313 show me now thy
way
EX 33:19 I will make all my goodness
pass before thee
EX 33:18 show me thy
glory
EX 33:22 while my glory passeth
by
Moses asked to see His Glory not His person
And God said I will show you my GOODNESS not His person
Of course in your view it MUST be His person to fit LDS
doctrine
If it was his Physical Form that passed by Pray Tell, what
exactly did Moses see when he saw God's Back Parts?
In addition Moses asked "show me now
thy way" Ex 33:13
What part of His body is associated with His way?
What Bo dy part is His Goodness? What part is His Glory?
AND WHY did God say "I will proclaim
the name of the LORD before thee" ?
Why did God, not say I will declare
MY name before thee??????
Moses said EX 33 show me thy
glory....
God
said: I will make all my goodness pass
before thee & my glory passeth
by
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven
and the earth.
Gen 1:31And God saw every thing that he had
made, and, behold, it was very good.
PS 97:6 The heavens decl are his
righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
PS 19:1 The
heavens declare the glory of God; and the
firmament sheweth his handywork. Dave Hansen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
DAVEH:
Do you deny that Moses saw God, Kevin?
Kevin Deegan wrote:
Moses said EX 33 show me
thy glory....And he said, I will make all my goodness
pass before thee
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the
heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:31And God saw every thing that h e
had made, and, behold, it was very good.
PS 97:6 The heavens declare his
righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
PS 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the
firmament sheweth his handywork.
Moses was an eyewitness of God's
glory Charles Perry Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Dave,
Simply
put, in Moses 1:2, PoGP, if Moses did not see god's "face" (as
"face" described in Exodus on Mt. Sainai, upon which God said
no man could look and live), then the statement about him
enduring it is unnecessary , because we know that men can gaze
upon whatever form god chooses to present himself, and endure,
except whatever he called his "face" on Sainai. The implication
in Moses 1:2 is that Moses should not have endured viewing
God, but did, thus, that he was seeing god's "face". If moses
did not see god's face in Moses 1:2, then enduring that feat
was no big deal for moses...hardly worth being called out. On
the other hand, if he was seeing god's face in Moses 1:2 and
endured it, then Moses 1:2 is contradicting
scripture.
Furthermore, if god were a man, why would he not
appear as a man every time he presents himself? Why a
different form every time, but never directly as a man? The
use of body parts to describe his image on Sinai is not
unreasonable since these are certainly the terms Moses was
familiar with, and the ones he obviously chose to describe the
experience.
As far as "similitude", it does not mean an
exact replica , or the thing itself. Furthermore, it refers
directly to whatever form is present. If god shows himself as
a burning bush, then his similitude is as a burning
bush.
Besides, if the Torah is attributed to Moses, why
would he have to write another book, repeating, and with
contradiction, the Torah?
I am done with this topic. I have
stated my position. Fini. We are not destined to agree, and
that is okay with me. Get you last shot in, then...
on to
my second question...how the mormon god, who is "without beginning
of days" is also a created being, thus, with a finite
beginning.
Perry
>From: Dave Hansen >Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the
PoGP! >Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:08:07
-0800 > >*I do know that Moses saw something, what god
wanted him to see.* > >DAVEH: I agree, Perry. God
wanted him to see his body, but not his face. > That is why
he said to Moses...... > >*[23] And I will take away
mine hand, and _thou shalt see my back parts_: >but my face
shall not be seen*. Ex 33 > >.........Do you deny that
Moses saw God's back parts? If not, then it is >clearly
obvious that Moses saw God. (And if you do deny it, then it would
>seem you are contradicting the Bible.) That does not mean
he didn't *also >*see a burning bush, or pillar of fire, or
column of smoke. Sure...he saw >those things too. But most
important to this discussion....Moses >*literally *saw God.
If you wish to i gnore that simple fact Perry, that is
>your privilege. I see it as denying the word of God to do
so though. >Furthermore, I can't believe there would be any
Bible believing Christian >TTer who would agree with you.
Am I wrong? > _*The implication in Moses 1:2 that Moses saw
god's "face" and survived >(endured) it. The Bible says
that is not possible.*_ > > That's pure nonsense,
Perry. You quoted LDS Scripture as
>saying....... > >/*MOS 1:2 And _he saw God
face to face_, and he talked with him, and the >glory of
God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*/ > >..........Now let me ask why this (Mos
1:2) would bother you, and yet you >apparently have no
problem with the Bible when it says in Num
14....... > >*[14] And they will tell it to the
inhabitants of this land: for they have >heard that thou
LORD art among this people, that _thou LORD art seen face
>to face_, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that
thou goest before >them, by day time in a pillar of a
cloud, and in a pillar of fire by
>night.* > >..........If LDS Scripture tells us
that Moses /_saw God face to face_/, >and the Bible tells
us that the Lord has been *_seen face to face_*....then
>*who *do you suppose saw the Lord IF it was not Moses?
FWIW....I do not >believe that the phrase /_saw God face to
face_/ or the phrase *_seen face >to face_* literally means
in either case that God's face was seen. I have >had
experiences where I've stood face to face with people, and have
not >actually looked at their faces, but rather have handed
them something (such >as money) or received something from
them (such as a coupon) without >glancing upward to see
their actual face. But....I did see their bodies, >or parts
thereof. > >/*none of the verses you quoted indicated
that Moses saw this aspect of >God's appearance
anyway. > > */Again........that is nonsense, Perry. I
previously q uoted Num >12....... > >*[8] With
him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark
>speeches; and _the similitude of the LORD shall he
behold_: wherefore then >were ye not afraid to speak
against my servant Moses? * > > Why do you think the
the term *_similitude_* was used, Perry? How >else do you
suppose they would say that Moses actually *saw *God, instead
>of just a burning bush, pillar of fire or column of smoke?
The term >*_similitude_* was expressly used to prevent
naysayers from saying that >Moses did /not really/ see God.
Even so....it is sadly obvious that >contrary to the Bible,
those naysayers even today continue to claim Moses >did not
see God. > >_/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the
biblical Moses, nor ANY man, >could look at the biblical
God's "face" and survive. yet more proof that >the mormon
god is not the biblical God. /_ >< BR>> I never
claimed that Moses saw God's face. So why you would think that
>is a contradiction boggles the mind. > >*_/I
don't "still think" it contradicts the bible...I "still know" it
>does./_* > > The contradiction is in your
mind, Perry. And, your assumption that >God cannot be seen
is in error, and non Biblical. You have been shown just >a
few Biblical passages that contradict your theory, Perry. (There
are >others as well, but there is little reason to discuss
them since you have >rejected the obvious
ones.) > > I have been accused of being stubborn in my
LDS biased beliefs, >Perry....but you certainly have
overshadowed me this time. It is overtly >obvious that you
have no desire to understand the truth of this matter as
>found in the Bible. Simply put, compared to what the Bible
>explains........you are teaching the doctrine of man, and
as such it must >be from Satan........do you
disagree? > >*How about my second question, Dave.
* > > What's the point of going on to the second
question, Perry? When I >show you specific Bible passages
that clearly refute your erroneous >theories, and you just
continue to disbelieve the Bible. Anything I would >try to
explain to you from LDS passages would be less productive than
>talking to a brick. > >Charles Perry Locke
wrote: > >>>Dave wrote: >>> After
reading more of the account of how Moses saw God, do you still
>>>think that the account you cited in Moses 1:2
contradicts the Bible? >> >> >>*I do
know that Moses saw something, what god wanted him to see.* Was it
a >>burning bush? A glowing mass? A pillar of fir e? A
column of Smoke? You >>see, God appeared however he
wished to appear to Moses. It appears to have >>been
different eac h time, and Moses certainly saw whatever it was that
god >>wanted him to see...and in the appearance on
Sinai, God certainly took a >>form that moses could
"see". However, on Sinai there was an aspect of this
>>appearance upon which no man could look and live. God
called this his >>"face". He protected moses from gazing
upon this aspect of his appearance, >>so it reasonable
to believe that in future meetings Moses did not see
>>god's "face" or he would have died as the boble
states. >> >>_*The implication in Moses 1:2 that
Moses saw god's "face" and survived >>(endured) it. The
Bible says that is not possible.*_ And, /*none of the
>>verses you quoted indicated that Moses saw this aspect
of God's appearance >>anyway.
*/ >> >>Maybe the mormon moses can look at the
mormon god's face (and, since you >>think the mormon god
is a man, he must have a litera l "face") and survive,
>>but , _/according to the B-I-B-L-E, neither the
biblical Moses, nor ANY >>man, could look at the
biblical God's "face" and survive. yet more proof >>that
the mormon god is not the biblical God.
/_ >> >>Thanks for the effort you put into this,
Dave, but *_/I don't "still >>think" it contradicts the
bible...I "still know" it does./_* I am sorry >>that
your mormon faith causes you not to be able to see
this. >> >>------------------------ >> >>*How
about my second question, Dave. I'll repeat it below so you do not
>>have to look it up: * >> >>It is a
mormon belief that the mormon god was once a man (from Kolob) who
>>was a created being (if not as a man, at least created
as a spirit). Yet, >>in the PoGP (one of your standard
works consisting of revelation to JS, >>right?) I find
the following, whi ch appears to say that the mormon god had
>>no beginning ("without beginning of
days"): >> >>MOS 1:3 And God spake unto Moses,
saying: Behold, I am the Lord God >>Almighty, and
Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or
>>end of years; and is not this
endless? >> >>Now, how is it that the mormon god
had a beginning, yet is "without >>beginning of
days"? >> >>Thank you in advance, Dave, for
taking the time to explain this to
me. >> >>Perry >> >> >> >> >>>From:
Dave Hansen >>>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >>>To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org >>>Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] Moses sees god's face and lives in the
PoGP! >>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:26:18
-0800 >>> >>>DAVEH: Since you brought up
Moses below, let's look what happened to him >>>in Ex
33... >>> >>>*[11] And the LORD spake unto
Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto >>>his
friend. * >>> >>>...............At the end
of the same chapter, the Lord tells
>>>Moses........ >>> >>>*[20]
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man
see >>>me, and live. >>>[21] And the LORD
said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt
>>>stand upon a rock: >>>[22] And it
shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will
>>>put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover
thee with my hand while I >>>pass
by: >>>[23] And I will take away mine hand, and _thou
shalt see my back parts_: >>>but my face shall not be
seen.* >>> >>>...........*_thou shalt see
my back parts_*, and as evidence that >>>actually
happened, ch 34
explains........ >>> >>>*[34] But when
Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took
>>>the vail off, until he came out. And he came out,
and spake unto the >>>children of Israel that which
he was commanded. >>>[35] And the children of Israel
saw the face of Moses, that the skin of >>>_Moses'
face shone:_ and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he
>>>went in to speak with
him. >>> >>>*...............That something
miraculous had happened that caused >>>*_Moses'
face_* to shine. Numbers 12 clarifies what Moses
saw........ >>> >>>*[5] And the LORD came
down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the
>>>do or of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and
Miriam: and they both came
>>>forth. >>>[6] And he said, Hear now my
words: If there be a prophet among you, I >>>the LORD
will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto
>>>him in a dream. >>>_[7] My servant
Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine
house. >>>[8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth,
even apparently, and not in >>>dark speeches; and the
similitude of the LORD shall he behold:_ wherefore
>>>then were ye not afraid to speak against my
servant Moses?* >>> >>>.........Notice
that he distinguishes between Moses and those of lesser
>>>faith. And he clearly points out that Moses beheld
the *_similitude of >>>the
LORD_*. >>> >>> So Perry, would you not
admit that this clearly shows that Moses saw >>>God?
That Moses did not s ee God's face is of little consequence. Moses
>>>probably never saw the bottom of God's feet
either. But....according to >>>the Bible he certainly
saw God. >>> >>> After reading more of the
account of how Moses saw God, do you still >>>think
that the account you cited in Moses
1:2......... >>> >>>/_*And he saw God face
to face, and he talked with him, and the glory >>>of
God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his
presence.*_/ >>> >>>..........contradicts
the Bible? I certainly don't see any
>>>contradiction, especially since the Bible quotes
the Lord as speaking >>>*face to face* to Moses. Are
you clear on that, Perry........or do you >>>continue
to believe it is impossible to see
God? >>> >>> >>> >>>Charles
Perry Locke
wrote: >>> >>>>Dave, >>>> >>>>
You have made the statement "Clearly the Bible does show that man
can >>>>see God." If it so clear, please show me
so I can be clear on this,
too. >>>> >>>>Perry >>>> >>>> >>>>>From:
Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>*Why
is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
>>>>>contradictions?* >>>>> >>>>>DAVEH:
Because LDS folks like me don't view them as contradictions,
>>>>>Perry. Instead, we view *your*
understanding to be in error. Clearly >>>>>the
Bible does show that man can see God. If you fail to understand
>>>>>that concept, then you will never
understand why LDS folks don't see it >>>>>as a
contradiction. >>>>> >>>>>Charles
Perry Locke
wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Dave, >>>>>> >>>>>>Moses
cannot see God and live in the Bible, but he can in the
PoGP! >>>>>> >>>>>>Exodus
33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall
>>>>>>no man see me, and
live. >>>>>> >>>>>>/_/*MOS
1:2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and
>>>>>>the glory of God was upon Moses;
therefore Moses could endure his
>>>>>>presence.*/_/ >>>>>> >>>>>>Dave,
how can this be? The revelation to JS in the PoGP contradicts
>>>>>>the Bible!!! Which is correct? I have
my opinion, of course! And that >>>>>>is t
hat if the moses of mormonism saw the mormon god's face and lived,
>>>>>>we must have a different god, for no
one can see the face of the God >>>>>>of the
Bible and
live! >>>>>> >>>>>>I
have read only the first few verses of the book of Moses in the
>>>>>>Pearl of Greast Price (one of the
mormon standard works consisting of
>>>>>>revelation to JS from god, right?),
and already have found two glaring
>>>>>>contradictions!!! Why should I read
further? >>>>>> >>>>>>*Why
is it that mormons like you, Dave, aren't alarmed by these
>>>>>>contradictions?* >>>>>> >>>>>>Perry >>>>>> >>>> >
---------- "Let
your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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If you wish to receive
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
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I maintain six email lists...
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